Complex Setups: What gives?

[draco]

I would say start off small,Everyone I know has had a crash,the bigger the more expensive it is to recover,And if you start off simple you get a better understanding of how everything works.When you want to upgrade the best thing is to ask on canreef,there will always be someone out there that is upgrading one step more than you,you can get your upgrade for half the price of new.keep reading other peoples problems it helps so you dont make the same mistake.The people here know more than your local petstore,they have had these problems,the guy at the petstore needed a job!We started with a 55 gal with pc and now we upgraded to a 90 gal with halides and overflows and sump.I would have been lost with out having had the 55gal first,and with out the people here anwsering all my questions.Good Luck

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by Der_Iron_Chef

This has been something I've been thinking about for quite some time. It seems like, in general, you're legit as a saltwater aquarist *only* if you have certain lighting, certain skimmer(s), plumbing that would make Bob Villa's head spin, and a Starphire tank all-around. There's a certain amount of bravado and narcissism when it comes to equipment. Let's be honest: if you see words like Geisemann, Vortech, Tunze and/or Bubble King in someone's signature, you're probably more likely to listen to what they have to say (ie. take them more seriously). Fact of the matter is, it just takes lots of money to have these pieces.

Bottom line: you can have a brilliant reef aquarium with lower cost equipment. As Beverly said, it just takes a little (or a lot) more elbow grease. I think there are definite benefits to having sumps and refugiums and what-not, but to say that they're a "must" is inaccurate.

OK this post has been bugging me all day long - I guess cause I don't agree with it. I don't think that anyone has said that you need all the fancy equipment with the big price tags to have a successful reef and I believe that the variety of people on this board that run aquariums ranging from the fully automated - all the bells and whistles - to the super getto are all respected and their opinions are welcome.
A common theme of peoples advise to others that are having problems or simply asking questions boils down to
- research, research research
- ensure that you have good, balanced water quality
- ensure that you are providing the optimum environment to the critters you are keeping.
I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that you need a Bubble King skimmer, calcium reactor, MH lights, Tunze powerhead etc etc etc. to have a successful reef tank.
What has been offered up in the past is a recommendation to ensure - proper and adequete water flow, pristine water quality (however you choose to ensure that with a skimmer, water changes etc), and adequete light.
Sure there are people who have toys and yes some of them are expensive. It doesn't make them more knowledgeable to better reef keepers but it is their CHOICE to have those particular pieces of equipment.
I think you will get the self righteous on both ends of the specturm - those that beat their chests because they have all the bells and whistles - and those that beat their chests because they run low tech systems and spurn those that have all or some of the pricey equipment.
There are many ways to run a successful salt water aquarium and as long as you do your research, ask questions, and are humble enought to admit when you have made a mistake and take actions to correct it you will do fine in this hobby - with or without the gadgets - it's your choice.

[Myanth]

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

[Chaotic Cricket]

Originally Posted by Myanth

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

So would you still put two clowns in ten gallons

[KrazyKuch]

Personnaly I have Skimmer, Kalk Reactor, Calcium Reactor, Coil Denitrator, Auto Top Off....All of which I have built my self or was built for me Which I find saves you tons of money if you DIY everything....My skimmer I built cost me $80 and it is equivelant to something that would cost around $500....

and Like Bev Said none of it is neccissary, I have them because I am lazy and don't want to dose everyother day and do weekly water changes so this equipment lets me go longer between water changes!!

[BMW Rider]

For me, the complexity is for simplicity. I love my tanks, but I don't want to be tied down by them, having to be continously checking this, adding that, feeding, testing, etc. I do usually fiddle and tweak daily, plus I feed daily some frozen food and nori. Additional twice daily feedings are done with a feeder. That way the fish are used to dry food and I can set the feeder for a bit more and all is good for an extended absence. Same goes for the automation, the tank runs pretty stable without any additives needed except on rare occasions, so it will be fine if I'm not there for a week or more. There's enough top off water to get through at least a week. I can add a larger auxilliary resevoir for longer trips. I also have power backups for the critical return pumps. I still have someone come by and make sure all is running a few times if I'm away fro more than a couple of days, but I know that barring disaster, the tanks will survive just fine without me while I'm away. They might be a bit gross with algae when I return, but that is a minor thing to cleanup again.

I don't buy the fancy name brand equipment, some of it is just way to pricey for me. I like to DIY when I can, but some things I've found are jsut too much work to DIY and make it operate reliably. For those I have bought premade, typically a decent product, but not the real high end stuff. Other things, like my CA reactor have been marvelous DIY successes for much less than the cost of buying.

I also agree with the concept that by making the routine chores less demanding there's more time to do other chores. Of course it can also lead to complacency which is something I've found myself falling to once in a while when other hobbies dominate my attention. Generally though, it just makes the reefing more enjoyable and less frustrating for me.

[Snappy]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

That's exactly it - you do what works for you to keep things simple from your perspective.

In my case, I tried dosing and I tried calcium reactors. For me, nothing beats the "set and forget" part of the calcium reactor. If I go away on a trip, my tank sitter doesn't have to do any kind of dosing, just check to make sure things are running. For me, that's simpler. But if another way seems simpler to you, then that's not wrong either.

Basically Chin nailed it:
I totally agree. (Although it seems to me that was the point I was originally trying to make, so I guess I'm just agreeing with myself now. Haha oh well.) Point is, it only seems overwhelming if you don't understand what it's for. And you should not do anything if you don't understand why you're doing it. So while someone says "you should use halides" (or whatever), if you don't understand why you need halides, then you don't need them. As your experience grows and your interests shift, you may realize that you do one day need them. But until then .. it's whatever makes your tank work, that works.

These statements describe what I was trying to say a lot better than I did. However in my previous post I said I couldn't run my system without a skimmer, and that is true but I have a larger than average bioload. Last summer my skimmer crapped out on me for a few months and I battled huge algae problems because of it. It got so bad it was literally killing corals and took about 7 months to get rid of it. I agree with what's been said in that adding more equipment make the hobby less complex. I can now spend more time enjoying the tank instead of just always working on it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed working on it and learned a lot but it seemed I spent most of the time just putting out fires. With a little more automated system it is now less hectic and has fewer emergencies. I still have a long way to go before it's fully automated so I still do regular maintanence but it's just easier than it once was.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

Originally Posted by Ruth

OK this post has been bugging me all day long - I guess cause I don't agree with it. I don't think that anyone has said that you need all the fancy equipment with the big price tags to have a successful reef and I believe that the variety of people on this board that run aquariums ranging from the fully automated - all the bells and whistles - to the super getto are all respected and their opinions are welcome.
A common theme of peoples advise to others that are having problems or simply asking questions boils down to
- research, research research
- ensure that you have good, balanced water quality
- ensure that you are providing the optimum environment to the critters you are keeping.
I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that you need a Bubble King skimmer, calcium reactor, MH lights, Tunze powerhead etc etc etc. to have a successful reef tank.
What has been offered up in the past is a recommendation to ensure - proper and adequete water flow, pristine water quality (however you choose to ensure that with a skimmer, water changes etc), and adequete light.
Sure there are people who have toys and yes some of them are expensive. It doesn't make them more knowledgeable to better reef keepers but it is their CHOICE to have those particular pieces of equipment.
I think you will get the self righteous on both ends of the specturm - those that beat their chests because they have all the bells and whistles - and those that beat their chests because they run low tech systems and spurn those that have all or some of the pricey equipment.
There are many ways to run a successful salt water aquarium and as long as you do your research, ask questions, and are humble enought to admit when you have made a mistake and take actions to correct it you will do fine in this hobby - with or without the gadgets - it's your choice.

Ruth--

I'm sorry if my comment bothered you. It was not my intent to generalize, as my comment may have appeared to do. In my post, I said that there's a "certain amount" of bravado and narcissism. I hold true to this. Early into the hobby, I left a particular LFS in Calgary very discouraged and angry. The owner basically made me feel like an idiot because I didn't have two grand to spend on lighting and a skimmer. On the other end of the spectrum, the people on this forum have been encouraging and informative.

The point of my comment was to inform the newcomer (like myself) that the expensive gadgetry isn't necessary, even if someone will make you feel like an arse for the sake of a sale.

Again, I apologize if I've offended. I can admit to my mistakes, and perhaps I've made one here.

[adidas]

all the gadgets can make it easier to maintain things...

[andsoitgoes]

Damn, this is turning out to be a fantastic thread. The information provided on here and the debates that are being put on the table are fair, informative and all further the OP's initial question. I've found this to be a thread I continue to come back to, in order to review what other people have equipment wise, what they have to say, the years of experience, etc.

For example, Beverly's setup that is low tech and includes no bells, no whistles, yet her tank is stunning and she's been through the gamut of all different types of tanks.

Other peoples are fancy, they have calcium this and denitrating thats and whozits and whatsits and thingamabobs.

I'm just learning on how fluidized beds work, and what the benefit of a quality skimmer/extra sump space is, etc., etc. - I'm really amazed by the passion and level of knowledge here. Wish it was seen on more aquarium sites, and I think this is why I've been so drawn to the saltwater hobby, because in order to succeed (I mean REALLY succeed) you need to know what the hell you're doing, and that comes across through most people that post here.

Kudos, and I'll keep right along reading.