Might have to eat my own words re: quarantine

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by vaporize

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

My king angel and coral beauty survived the copper treatment no problem.

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Originally Posted by Myka

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Interesting, should I ask for proof texts as you do of me? It seems strange that if copper was so dangerous to humans why is it allowed for piping in our homes? I was aware that aluminum has been linked with alzheimer's but not copper. +1 for drinking RO water.

Originally Posted by Myka

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

It is always wise to do research before you begin keeping animals as it gives you a base to start from. 12 years ago I researched copper before I opted to start using it in my business. Seacare Maricultured Products was Western Canada's largest Marine only wholesaler for a lot of years. So, I have the research, albeit old, and on top of it ten+ years of experience keeping 1000's of fish(angels, tangs and scaleless) in copper medicated water. I have had damselfish(neopomacentrus azysron) and a sleeper goby(Valencienna sp.) both lay egg masses while living in copper water at 0.26mg/l ionic copper. Pics are available. I used copper sulfate and Citric acid that I would mix myself. That is the most potent form and requires constant monitoring, which I did with a Lamotte Digital colorimeter.

Originally Posted by Myka

If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal.

Yes, the copper does get absorbed by the buffers in the water, pvc pipes, and the fishes themselves absorb it. After a while it quits getting absorbed by the buffers and pipes and the readings begin to stabilize.

It typically takes a pH of lower than 6.9 to begin to start redissolving carbonates. Most people run their reactors around 6.5. If your QT is lower than 6.9pH the fish is probably dead already or will be soon.

Originally Posted by Myka

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where Copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]

The reason Copper and Malachite Green are not approved by FDA for food fish is that they both go into the tissues and leave residues. Formalin just temporarily burns the outer layer of the fish and leaves behind no traces other than the damage.

Originally Posted by Myka

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated.

Well we both have come to different conclusions so we can agree to disagree. I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.


As far as my comment on cyanided fish in the industry. The cyanide capitals in this industry are Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. Probably 90% of the fish come from those areas and there is no question by anyone in the know that the cyanide use there is heavy.

Some fishes are available from other areas but the costs are at least 6 - 10 times from Philippines or Indo. I am referring to Bicolor Angels or Coral Beauty Angels, Naso Tang, Blue Tangs etc. The more expensive places are generally in the South Pacific, Australia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Hawaii, Marshall Islands etc. In those areas they don't use cyanide although some of them may use MS222 to anesthetize the fish. Business economics then takes over as to where the fish are sourced from.

If you google Peter Rubec or Steve Robinson or Vaughn Pratt and Cyanide you will come up with a lot of info. For your info I have had numerous lengthy conversations with all of them in regards to Cyanide and Cyanide Free Exporters whom I could buy from.

Cyanide damages or outright destroys what is called the proton pump. It converts Adenosine diphosphate into Adenosine triphosphate, which the muscles can then use. Basically Cyanide disrupts or destroys a fishes ability to convert food into useable energy. Thus the fish eats well but starves and eventually dies. This info from a friend who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine in Texas.

If you wish to discuss cyanide use we should start a new thread.

Cheers,
Tim

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by TimT

I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.

I'm mostly done with it, and this is kinda pertinent

[Lance]

Holy crap! Was away for a couple weeks and come back to find this very disturbing thread. So sorry for your losses Brad.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Lance

Holy crap! Was away for a couple weeks and come back to find this very disturbing thread. So sorry for your losses Brad.

You can't leave for a couple of weeks, you miss too much! Ya, lost almost all of the fish, and the fallow period doesn't start until I can get the remaining orange spot goby out. Gonna try a spear

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

and the fallow period doesn't start until I can get the remaining orange spot goby out. Gonna try a spear

Been through that and I gotta say it's a looooong 8 weeks. A tank with no fish in it is a sad, lonely place.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Lance

Been through that and I gotta say it's a looooong 8 weeks. A tank with no fish in it is a sad, lonely place.

I wouldn't know yet, I have a goby that won't die...

I've got a sohal and a queen coming, I hope, they'll live at the store for a while before going into quarantine. Now I have to make a wanted list, most of the last fish were adoptees.

[lastlight]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I've got a sohal and a queen coming

Hate to be the bearer of bad news brad but sohals need 8 foot tanks dude.

Crap and you've likely already paid for it too.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by lastlight

Hate to be the bearer of bad news brad but sohals need 8 foot tanks dude.

Crap and you've likely already paid for it too.

No, it's a special 6ft tank sohal. I'm only going to feed it twice a week to keep it small.

[hillegom]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

No, it's a special 6ft tank sohal. I'm only going to feed it twice a week to keep it small.

lol
Brad, would it help if you run an Uv sterilizer in your QT?