Might have to eat my own words re: quarantine

[Myka]

Tim,

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

Copper also binds with carbonates and precipitates out of the water column. If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal. Copper is not compatible with Prime or AmQuel as those products will convert Cu+2 to Cu+ which is much more toxic and will often be lethal. Copper also stresses the fishes' systems enough that it can make the fish susceptible to other diseases.

With formalin, the fish is only exposed for a short time (45 to 60 minutes). Formalin is compatible with AmQuel and Prime, although the addition of ammonia detoxifiers are not needed in a bath anyway. The toxicity of formalin doesn't change in reaction to pH (or alkalinity). There is a much bigger difference between the treatment range and the LC-50 of Formalin in comparison to copper. The LC-50 of formalin is many times the concentration of typical baths. [Here's a study]

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated.

Originally Posted by TimT

Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught...

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Myka

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net

[hillegom]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by hillegom

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

The thing is, the guys that catch these fish we enjoy are fathers and husbands, trying to feed their families. Now on average, they probably get 0.10 per fish on the beach from the local wholesaler. Now economically, they have to think that using a hook to catch a single fish will take what, 5 - 10 minutes on average (try it in your tank ). But, if they blast the reef head with CN, they'll get 50 fish dazed and confused, ready to be picked. That might mean the difference between rice and meat for dinner. mostly, these countries have little knowledge or concern for the environment, and see only what they can make today and the immediate future. Sure, there are programs to teach net fishing, and some orgs supply nets, and yes, some fish are actually caught that way. But for the fishermen to make decent money, and to supply the global demand for fish, they just are not catching sinlge fish on a hook in any appreciable volume. Some fish yes, clowns are easy to catch, some bottom dwellers, etc, but many fish can only (easily) be caught with a bottle of CN.
Is this 75%?? No idea, but I'm sure it's a lot higher than most people are aware...IMO

[Myka]

I have a friend from Bali that used to work as a fisherman for the aquarium trade. I asked him all about it years ago, and he confirmed that cyanide was still used there, although it was frowned upon even within the fishermen. He figured the number would be closer to 10%.

I think 75% is outrageously exaggerated. It would be nice if someone did an undercover analysis of the fish collection for the aquarium trade. We might learn all sorts of interesting (and scary) things...

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by vaporize

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

My king angel and coral beauty survived the copper treatment no problem.

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Originally Posted by Myka

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Interesting, should I ask for proof texts as you do of me? It seems strange that if copper was so dangerous to humans why is it allowed for piping in our homes? I was aware that aluminum has been linked with alzheimer's but not copper. +1 for drinking RO water.

Originally Posted by Myka

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

It is always wise to do research before you begin keeping animals as it gives you a base to start from. 12 years ago I researched copper before I opted to start using it in my business. Seacare Maricultured Products was Western Canada's largest Marine only wholesaler for a lot of years. So, I have the research, albeit old, and on top of it ten+ years of experience keeping 1000's of fish(angels, tangs and scaleless) in copper medicated water. I have had damselfish(neopomacentrus azysron) and a sleeper goby(Valencienna sp.) both lay egg masses while living in copper water at 0.26mg/l ionic copper. Pics are available. I used copper sulfate and Citric acid that I would mix myself. That is the most potent form and requires constant monitoring, which I did with a Lamotte Digital colorimeter.

Originally Posted by Myka

If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal.

Yes, the copper does get absorbed by the buffers in the water, pvc pipes, and the fishes themselves absorb it. After a while it quits getting absorbed by the buffers and pipes and the readings begin to stabilize.

It typically takes a pH of lower than 6.9 to begin to start redissolving carbonates. Most people run their reactors around 6.5. If your QT is lower than 6.9pH the fish is probably dead already or will be soon.

Originally Posted by Myka

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where Copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]

The reason Copper and Malachite Green are not approved by FDA for food fish is that they both go into the tissues and leave residues. Formalin just temporarily burns the outer layer of the fish and leaves behind no traces other than the damage.

Originally Posted by Myka

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated.

Well we both have come to different conclusions so we can agree to disagree. I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.


As far as my comment on cyanided fish in the industry. The cyanide capitals in this industry are Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. Probably 90% of the fish come from those areas and there is no question by anyone in the know that the cyanide use there is heavy.

Some fishes are available from other areas but the costs are at least 6 - 10 times from Philippines or Indo. I am referring to Bicolor Angels or Coral Beauty Angels, Naso Tang, Blue Tangs etc. The more expensive places are generally in the South Pacific, Australia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Hawaii, Marshall Islands etc. In those areas they don't use cyanide although some of them may use MS222 to anesthetize the fish. Business economics then takes over as to where the fish are sourced from.

If you google Peter Rubec or Steve Robinson or Vaughn Pratt and Cyanide you will come up with a lot of info. For your info I have had numerous lengthy conversations with all of them in regards to Cyanide and Cyanide Free Exporters whom I could buy from.

Cyanide damages or outright destroys what is called the proton pump. It converts Adenosine diphosphate into Adenosine triphosphate, which the muscles can then use. Basically Cyanide disrupts or destroys a fishes ability to convert food into useable energy. Thus the fish eats well but starves and eventually dies. This info from a friend who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine in Texas.

If you wish to discuss cyanide use we should start a new thread.

Cheers,
Tim

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by Myka

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

[marie]

Originally Posted by vaporize

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

I treated both of my potters angels with cupramine for 14 days with no problems. Copper will cause a decrease in appetite in all fish though