Outraged!!!

[chandigz]

The permits are only required for international trade(import/export/re-export). I'm only saying that once these items enter the country we can only assume they were legally imported unless you have access to the permits for proof. If you were trying to re-export from Canada to another country or from the US to Canada, you would need copies of the original CITIES permit from the country of origin. The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

[MarkoD]

Originally Posted by chandigz

The permits are only required for international trade(import/export/re-export). I'm only saying that once these items enter the country we can only assume they were legally imported unless you have access to the permits for proof. If you were trying to re-export from Canada to another country or from the US to Canada, you would need copies of the original CITIES permit from the country of origin. The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by MarkoD

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?

if its in your tank in this country its assumed permits were had to bring it in making it legal for you to have, its getting caught in the process of importing without having the proper documents thats illegal.....anyone could have black market animals in there tank theres no way to tell.

[jtbadco]

which is exactly why we should be getting rid of the ones we do catch.

And just to clarify, by getting rid of, I mean to say get them out of the industry,..I'm not suggesting Myka get the AK out.

[chandigz]

Originally Posted by MarkoD

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?

Thats the problem you can't and either can they. The way customs sees it they all originated from the ocean at one time. Any piece of calcium carbonate based coral skeleton is considered to be part of an endangerded species whether captive grown or wild. They cannot tell the difference between a third generation frag containing none of the original coral or a clipping of a wild coral. Canada and the US as well as other countries do not allow export of there own corals so that coral had to come from somewhere. The only way to kind of prove that coral is legal is with a copy of the permit. But who is to say a certain permit goes with a certain coral. I guess a permit containing Acropora could really be used for any re-export of an acropora. Who would know?

[fishytime]

^^^so we should ignore the fact that this guy just got convicted of 18 offenses and support him because none of us can prove were our coral came from?

shouldnt you, being in the industry, be supportive of a conviction off such offenses......HE DIDNT HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK!.....anyone who makes the importation of cites regulated specimens knows the paper-trail that NEEDS to be followed........it not like he was like, "dang! I done forgot to the fill out and file the paperwork".......If this is your business then you KNOW what avenues you need to follow to legally import things.....


Sad part is, is he will not see jail time and likely be forced to pay a nominal fine (especially if this was his first trip through the system) and will still be selling stuff tomorrow......this is where the customer can make a difference

[chandigz]

Originally Posted by fishytime

^^^so we should ignore the fact that this guy just got convicted of 18 offenses and support him because none of us can prove were our coral came from?

shouldnt you, being in the industry, be supportive of a conviction off such offenses......HE DIDNT HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK!.....anyone who makes the importation of cites regulated specimens knows the paper-trail that NEEDS to be followed........it not like he was like, "dang! I done forgot to the fill out and file the paperwork".......If this is your business then you KNOW what avenues you need to follow to legally import things.....


Sad part is, is he will not see jail time and likely be forced to pay a nominal fine (especially if this was his first trip through the system) and will still be selling stuff tomorrow......this is where the customer can make a difference

Like I said in my intial response what he did was wrong. I was not defending him. No where did i say it wasn't wrong. I just wanted to let people know the facts about the species they were keeping. I just wanted to let the people that were saying that they would never keep an endangered species of coral that they should have their facts straight. All hard coral/live rock(Scleractinia sp.)are on the CITIES list. They are there because they are endangered. We all like to point fingers but we need to know the facts. These species can be legaly imported. He did it illegally and its good that he got caught.

[chandigz]

I agree, him not having permits was illegal and he should pay. Importing these species is not. The reason these species (CITIES schedule II)require CITIES permits is that they are on watch list a quota system in order to monitor and control export/import so they don't become so endangered that they become a "Banned" (CITIES schedule I species). Not having the permits means that they were not counted in the quotas which could have an impact on the overall outlook of the species and if allowed to continue could make them truely endangered. I agree that an example should be made so that others don't try. None of these species are banned yet. BUT....

Currently there are several special interest groups In the US that are pushing for several coral species including several species of acropora, euphyllia(frogspawn, torch, hammer) and others to be moved from CITIES schedule II to CITIES schedule I. If this happens they would be considered "banned endangered species" and you may require permits to keep the ones you have(grandfathered). If this happens you would not legally be able to import, export, devide or frag(now you would need multiple permits but your new peice would not be grandfathered so it would be illegal), sell, give or transport over state and possible provincial lines. The worst part of this is that it would make captive culturing of these species illegal so if the species did become extinct in wild the it could be gone for good This is what over harvesting because of illegally imported endangered species could lead to.

[Delphinus]

CITES, not CITIES!

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

CITES, not CITIES!

way to stir up trouble tony lolppp