Longest Possible Safe FW Dip?

[doch]

I think that the nail was hit directly. A 40gal tank is way too small for any tang, and this is part of the point that Fishytime is trying to make. Tangs need space to move. If they don't have enough room to swim, this may add to the other stresses of the capture and relocation. I tend to agree with him. The less stress the better for them. I've been looking for a powder blue for quite some time now, but haven't found one that looks healthy enough, and has been in an LFS long enough for me to grab.

[rastaangel]

My 40g is a hell of alot bigger them what I see most tangs in on display at stores. But were wondering of path here LOL
1. How long can you FW dip a fish?
2. Would you do a FW dip then add the fish to your DT w/o being QTed

[daniella3d]

why FW dip? it's harsh on a fish. I would do a one hour dip with Paraguard and then yes quarantine the fish and if everything is fine after 4 weeks then in the display tank.

As for how long to FW dip, as long as the fish stand it, usually not very long, no more than 20 minutes or so. Paraguard is safer and the fish usually show no sign of stress. A 40 gallons aquarium is no bigger than any 40 gallons aquarium, it is still 40 gallons. A fish need its vital room to breath and have enough oxygen. If the aquarium is overcrawded and something goes on the edge than fish die from lack of oxygen. I see it so often. This is why I don't put any more fish in my 75 gallons although it looks empty of fish.

Originally Posted by rastaangel

My 40g is a hell of alot bigger them what I see most tangs in on display at stores. But were wondering of path here LOL
1. How long can you FW dip a fish?
2. Would you do a FW dip then add the fish to your DT w/o being QTed

[TimT]

I prefer to try and stay away from chemical meds whenever possible due to them usually containing carcinogenic components.

There are several advantages to a FW bath over a Paraguard bath for fish that are healthy and strong.

1. FW is free.
2. FW is non toxic
3. FW does not need to be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner
4. FW is not a carcinogen
5. FW will not stain your skin, clothes or the aquarium silicone
6. FW works no matter what the concentration
7. FW is safe for human consumption :-) Important if you have young kids.
8. FW does not leave a fish injured
9. FW does not stress a fish by burning it's gills and skin like Paraguard does.

I have observed lots of fish show no stress reaction at all when going into a FW bath. Even anthias and fairy wrasses don't freak out. I can only remember two fish going into shock out of 100's that I have given FW baths too. One was a rabbitfish and the other a pacific sailfin. I have only lost 4 or 5 due to pre existing ick infections that were quite severe. As a wholesaler I have been doing FW baths on fish for about 10 years so have done a lot of them.

If a fish is in a weakened condition due to parisitization then a hyposalinity treatment in a QT may be a better option.

[daniella3d]

Please state your reference that said that Paraguard is carcinogen and burn the skin of the fish??

I use it all the time and I never saw a fish being burned, quite the opposite. I use it to treat disease for weeks and never saw any burnt skin, not even in concentrated bath.

Originally Posted by TimT

I prefer to try and stay away from chemical meds whenever possible due to them usually containing carcinogenic components.

There are several advantages to a FW bath over a Paraguard bath for fish that are healthy and strong.

1. FW is free.
2. FW is non toxic
3. FW does not need to be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner
4. FW is not a carcinogen
5. FW will not stain your skin, clothes or the aquarium silicone
6. FW works no matter what the concentration
7. FW is safe for human consumption :-) Important if you have young kids.
8. FW does not leave a fish injured
9. FW does not stress a fish by burning it's gills and skin like Paraguard does.

I have observed lots of fish show no stress reaction at all when going into a FW bath. Even anthias and fairy wrasses don't freak out. I can only remember two fish going into shock out of 100's that I have given FW baths too. One was a rabbitfish and the other a pacific sailfin. I have only lost 4 or 5 due to pre existing ick infections that were quite severe. As a wholesaler I have been doing FW baths on fish for about 10 years so have done a lot of them.

If a fish is in a weakened condition due to parisitization then a hyposalinity treatment in a QT may be a better option.

[poleyc]

http://www.americanaquariumproducts....arium_Ich.html

[Reefer Rob]

Fresh water dip is the most dangerous, stressful thing you can do to a fish. Been there done that... temperature, PH balance, etc etc, it wasn't pretty. Better to do a hypo salinity treatment... and carefully... if you treat at all. The only time I've lost fish is during treatments

[rastaangel]

Originally Posted by Reefer Rob

Fresh water dip is the most dangerous, stressful thing you can do to a fish. Been there done that... temperature, PH balance, etc etc, it wasn't pretty. Better to do a hypo salinity treatment... and carefully... if you treat at all. The only time I've lost fish is during treatments

I tend to disagree! There are some things that can only be killed quick and effectivly by a FW dip. Case and point marine velvet isnt killed by hypo but a FW dip does it in 5 min
I have NEVER lost a fish in a dip and dipped every single fish I have ever got for 5 min or more

[TimT]

Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.

Originally Posted by daniella3d

Please state your reference that said that Paraguard is carcinogen and burn the skin of the fish??

Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Malachite Green -

"Female rats exposed to malachite green chloride had increased incidences of thyroid gland follicular cell adenoma or carcinoma and hepatocellular adenoma, and a dose-related increasing trend in mammary gland carcinoma."

taken from this link.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78691506000202


Formaldehyde, which is a simple aldehyde -

"In 2011, the National Toxicology Program, an interagency program of the Department of Health and Human Services, named formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen in its 12th Report on Carcinogens "

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde


For Aldehydes -

"Cytotoxicity may also be of major importance in acetaldehyde carcinogenesis but further studies are needed to prove or disprove this assumption. For a large number of aldehydes (relevant) data on neither carcinogenicity nor genotoxicity are available. From epidemiological studies there is no convincing evidence of aldehyde exposure being related to cancer in humans."

taken from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2017217

I think it safe to assume more research needed on aldehyde carcinogenicity. However there are lots of different types of Aldehydes.


In regards to formaldehyde burning the fishes gills and skin. It has that burning effect on humans so it is safe to assume the same effect on fishes.

"When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat; coughing; wheezing; nausea; and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure."

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde


Hi Jan,

Originally Posted by jan

Tim,do you use R/O water or tap and what do you use to equalize the PH?

I use my Ocean Fresh Alk to increase the pH of the RO water. Ocean Fresh Alk is an aluminum free Sodium Bicarbonate. I have a Lamotte Digital pH meter for checking the pH.



Ken makes some good points.

Originally Posted by BlueWorldAquatic

If the fish dies from a FW dip, it was already too far gone before it already.

From my experience with FW dips, this is only really effective in parasites.

From my experience with FW baths they are good for flukes, ich, velvet, early stage of brookynella(no peeling skin/mucous layer visible). They also help with the mysterious Bali clownfish(occelaris) disease. All of which are parasites. FW baths do NOT help with intestinal worms, HLLE, Lymphocystitus and fin rot.

I am not trying to hijack the thread but from my experience the food that you feed your animals has a direct effect on their health. This is easily observed in cats and dogs. Feed them cheap food and you will go to the veterinarian$$$$ far more often. The same applies with fish, feed them a poor quality food and they won't do as well as if they had a nutritionally balanced and natural food. That is why I started to produce the Ocean Fresh Pacifica Plankton. I found that the fish did much better on it than any other food I had tried. I have used it for well over 10 years to keep fish in top condition. When you feed your fish a food that is naturally high in vitamins, minerals and immuno-stimulants you don't need to use all the other food additives etc.

That being said, I am rather biased towards these products for a couple reasons; I know they work from using them myself and I am producing them in sizes suitable for sale to reef aquarists. There is my commercial disclosure.

Cheers,
Tim

[daniella3d]

Although paraguard does not contain formaldeyde, so that part does not apply to paraguard. I was more refering to its carcinogenic effects on fish when used as a dip.

'ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available. Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH.'

So basically that leave the malachite green that might be toxic but is it at such concentration and for a dip? I never had any fish show any adverse reaction when doing one hour dip in Paraguard. They did not seem stressed either and where very relaxed during the dip...not so much for freshwater dip..which seem to be so stressfull for them and often kill them.

Originally Posted by TimT

Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.



Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Tim