Longest Possible Safe FW Dip?

[TimT]

Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.

Originally Posted by daniella3d

Please state your reference that said that Paraguard is carcinogen and burn the skin of the fish??

Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Malachite Green -

"Female rats exposed to malachite green chloride had increased incidences of thyroid gland follicular cell adenoma or carcinoma and hepatocellular adenoma, and a dose-related increasing trend in mammary gland carcinoma."

taken from this link.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78691506000202


Formaldehyde, which is a simple aldehyde -

"In 2011, the National Toxicology Program, an interagency program of the Department of Health and Human Services, named formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen in its 12th Report on Carcinogens "

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde


For Aldehydes -

"Cytotoxicity may also be of major importance in acetaldehyde carcinogenesis but further studies are needed to prove or disprove this assumption. For a large number of aldehydes (relevant) data on neither carcinogenicity nor genotoxicity are available. From epidemiological studies there is no convincing evidence of aldehyde exposure being related to cancer in humans."

taken from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2017217

I think it safe to assume more research needed on aldehyde carcinogenicity. However there are lots of different types of Aldehydes.


In regards to formaldehyde burning the fishes gills and skin. It has that burning effect on humans so it is safe to assume the same effect on fishes.

"When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat; coughing; wheezing; nausea; and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure."

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...k/formaldehyde


Hi Jan,

Originally Posted by jan

Tim,do you use R/O water or tap and what do you use to equalize the PH?

I use my Ocean Fresh Alk to increase the pH of the RO water. Ocean Fresh Alk is an aluminum free Sodium Bicarbonate. I have a Lamotte Digital pH meter for checking the pH.



Ken makes some good points.

Originally Posted by BlueWorldAquatic

If the fish dies from a FW dip, it was already too far gone before it already.

From my experience with FW dips, this is only really effective in parasites.

From my experience with FW baths they are good for flukes, ich, velvet, early stage of brookynella(no peeling skin/mucous layer visible). They also help with the mysterious Bali clownfish(occelaris) disease. All of which are parasites. FW baths do NOT help with intestinal worms, HLLE, Lymphocystitus and fin rot.

I am not trying to hijack the thread but from my experience the food that you feed your animals has a direct effect on their health. This is easily observed in cats and dogs. Feed them cheap food and you will go to the veterinarian$$$$ far more often. The same applies with fish, feed them a poor quality food and they won't do as well as if they had a nutritionally balanced and natural food. That is why I started to produce the Ocean Fresh Pacifica Plankton. I found that the fish did much better on it than any other food I had tried. I have used it for well over 10 years to keep fish in top condition. When you feed your fish a food that is naturally high in vitamins, minerals and immuno-stimulants you don't need to use all the other food additives etc.

That being said, I am rather biased towards these products for a couple reasons; I know they work from using them myself and I am producing them in sizes suitable for sale to reef aquarists. There is my commercial disclosure.

Cheers,
Tim

[daniella3d]

Although paraguard does not contain formaldeyde, so that part does not apply to paraguard. I was more refering to its carcinogenic effects on fish when used as a dip.

'ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available. Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH.'

So basically that leave the malachite green that might be toxic but is it at such concentration and for a dip? I never had any fish show any adverse reaction when doing one hour dip in Paraguard. They did not seem stressed either and where very relaxed during the dip...not so much for freshwater dip..which seem to be so stressfull for them and often kill them.

Originally Posted by TimT

Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.



Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Tim

[rastaangel]

Kinda just answered my own question...
I picked up a very unique misbar clownfish today that was in a system with a puffer that had a obvious ick issue.
Got home and preped a FW bath for him. 2 deg warmer, .10 PH less, 5 drops methelyne blue. He sailed clean threw 25 min and didnt show any signs of stress until 33 min at which point I stopped

[AquaticFinatic]

i picked up a white cheek tang that had been in jl aquatics for 3-4 weeks from what i was told. looked fine and has been in my display tank for a week now. today he is showing signs of a few spots(white) should i pull him out and fresh dip him? i haven't got a qt big enough for him as hes over 5" long. he is in a 200g right now with my other fish. thanks

[rayjay]

Dipping the tank will only be temporary relief for it as the ich is in the tank.
He has an outbreak now due to the stress of being moved to your tank, and possibly due also to trying to establish a territory that others are not willing to give up on.
I would redo the reefscape so that they ALL have to re-establish their territory at the same time, making it easier for it to settle in.
If ich gets to be quite bad you may have to give it a dip just to give it more time to get established, but removing it to dip it is a big stressor in itself.

[TimT]

Since the tang is already in the Display tank my suggestion would be to get a UV sterilizer. Powder type tangs tend to be ick magnets... any temperature fluctuations and they get a few spots. I think a UV would do the tank well and would keep ick from overwhelming the fish.

[rayjay]

UV normally only works part of the time and is a big expense that IMO, isn't worth the money.
The problem being not all of the parasitic stages of the ich go through the UV and the fish, remaining stressed, still presents visible signs of the ich.
You DO however, lower the level of inherent zooplankton that the corals feed on as some of it goes through the UV and is killed off along with the portion of parasites that are killed.
IMO the best answer is STILL to remove the source of the stress.