Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[VFX]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

H1N1 as some of you have stated is different from regular flu.

This is a strain that we have not seen before & hence it's more contagious as virtually nobody has a natural immunity to it.

Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).

There has been questions raised about the vaccine in regards to it's speed to market & to 'mistakes' that have occurred along the way. These have been well documented & anyone with access to Google can find them.

Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.

So no, flu vaccines have not changed that much in the last 30 yrs, but if people think they have ALL the information they need, they might be wrong.

The facts so far are:

1 - Risk of catching H1N1 - Minimal (5.26% of Canreefers so far)
2 - Risk of dying from H1N1 - Very small percentage of Minimal.
3 - Risk of contracting serious complications from taking vaccine - miniscule.

I guess you just choose your own risk level.

However, that still leaves too many questions about the true origins of H1N1, the speed at which the WHO have escalated the pandemic levels, & the worldwide vaccination program being 'forced' down our throats by the government & the media.

Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by VFX

Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).

Okay the vaccine NEEDS to have some form of H1N1 in it, that's how vaccines work, it's like training wheels for your immune system. You can't teach it to fight a virus without providing it something that very closely resembles the virus.

The fact that this vaccine uses attenuated (damaged but alive) virus rather than dead virus is again not especially new. This technique hasn't traditionally been used for flu vaccines but has been used before. It is preferred as it works better in healthy adults and has been used in mumps, measles, rubella and yellow fever for many years.

Originally Posted by VFX

Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.

The adjuvant was developed for use in the H5N1 vaccine GSK recently fielded, it made sense for them to use that as a starting point for the H1N1 vaccine. It was submitted first and got approved first. So what's your point?

Originally Posted by VFX

Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

I wouldn't say stupid, could 54% of Canreefers be wrong? Absolutely. More that once we've seen some very common misconceptions about reef keeping get shot to flames here, why should this be different?

[VFX]

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

.

Every single vaccine ever made has either dead or attenuated microbe or pieces of the microbe's proteins in it. Your body recognizes the foreign proteins as being "not you" and produces antibodies against it. That is how you develop immunity and how vaccines work. So every year new flu vaccines come out using the new strains of flu virus expected that year. There is nothing different about this.

The reason why people still get the flu after having flu shots is that the flu shots for each year are a best guess made by the medical community as to which 3 or 4 strains might be a problem in the coming flu season. Often they get one or more wrong. Also, other strains do occur as well but may be less common then the ones vaccinated against. So seasonal flu vaccines are often not 100% effective. Do not confuse that with the H1N1 vaccine though as that is a known strain and the vaccine is targeted at it.

Originally Posted by VFX

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

.

However, these adjuvants have been used in Europe for a long time and are well understood and tested there. The simple explanation is that adjuvants are extra ingredients that stimulate your immune system to produce a more vigorous response. It allows the vaccine to be effective but contain less virus. This was chosen to get the vaccine out sooner as growing H1N1 proved to be difficult and the supply of virus to make vaccines has been constrained.

Originally Posted by VFX

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

.

I'm sure we can find many many many examples of the majority being wrong

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

If I had to guess I would say it is just a combination of the current mass paranoia that seems to be developing over H1N1 coupled to ignorance. And I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm using "ignorant" in the exact definition as "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

I think since the average person has no substantial knowledge of medicine, microbiology, immunology, pharmaceutical science and epidemiology it is easy for them to get lost in the misinformation and silliness being reported. This is especially true with the internet where many things are written with little research or basis in facts and information.

I strongly believe that we should look at the big picture and work together to try to control the spread of pandemics which will likely be much more common in the future as the human population keeps growing and also global travel keeps increasing. it is very easy for a virus to travel to the other side of the globe in 1 or 2 days now compared to weeks to months 100 or more years ago.

I mentioned smallpox earlier. The only way smallpox was eliminated was through mass global vaccinations. Things like H1N1 and whatever comes next will also need similar responses to keep them under control. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals are heavily regulated. More so then almost any other product you will use. More so then cars for example. But when you get behind the wheel of a new car you trust that the regulations ensured the manufacturer built the car to have brakes that work and seat belts that work etc. Why should this be any different?

Government is usually pretty wasteful and stupid but if they are paying to have everybody vaccinated there is probably a pretty good reason for it. It's a lot of money that they can't use to line their own pockets or hand out to special interest groups for votes

[intarsiabox]

The adjuvant used is squalene based and has been used in the UK since 1997 with over 22 million doses given. The use of adjuvants is not new in Canada just in the flu shot. Meningitis and pneumonia vaccines have been using adjuvants in Canada for years.

Link to a CTV News question and answer report on the vaccine.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...725?hub=Health

Another link from the Globe and Mail with Canada's chief health officer stating that the vaccine does NOT contain a live virus as some sources have been stating.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1336764/

[VFX]

Just for the record my partner works in Pharmacuetics so I do know a thing or 2 about how flu vaccines & other medicines work & how they're made. I've bugged her endlessly on this!

As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?

The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?

People are saying 22m doses of squalene based adjuvant enhanced flu vaccine has been administered without 'severe' events being noted. What they don't say is that the adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccine is not just made from shark liver oil but has added mineral & other bio content.

What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons.

As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die.

As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here.

To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know?

How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

[noirsphynx]

http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/...ccine-dangers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?.

That Depends on how it mutates. The current vaccine may still provide full immunity, partial immunity or none at all. Can't predict that in advance. It depends on how it mutates.

Originally Posted by VFX

The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?.

The adjuvants are there to boost effectiveness when you don't have enough virus to make a full strength vaccine. Growing a flu virus in a lab culture is different then where the virus normally grows in human tissue. It is not the virus' normal environment so it may not grow anywhere near as well in culture. It would be like trying to grow SPS at the bottom of a 24" tank with some PC lighting. It might survive and maybe even grow really slowly but nowhere near as well as in its optimal conditions. Not the best analogy but something we can relate to on this board.

Originally Posted by VFX

What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons..

Maybe a bit different then the typical North American flu vaccine but it is very similar to the European vaccines that have been used for years in millions of people. So we have all that data on it.

Originally Posted by VFX

As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die..

Yeah, that is a more extreme example. However, as has been pointed out, this strain of flu is more virulent then the usual seasonal flu and is killing people that would not normally be considered as high risk from regular seasonal flu. yes, it is still a relatively small number but it is significantly higher then regular seasonal flu. Young children are considered a higher risk group in H1N1. I would rather take the chance of a 1 in a million side effect in my kids then the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 chance they could become seriously ill or die from H1N1. I would also not want to be the guy that gave H1N1 flu to somebody who ends up dead.

Originally Posted by VFX

As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here..

As I said, I wasn't trying to be insulting and it was more a general comment that a lot of the fear and uncertainty is coming from ignorance and misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by VFX

To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know? .

Well, I would hope that my degrees in pharmacoloy and toxicology coupled to my 15 years of work in the pharmaceutical industry and my earlier undergraduate education in microbiology and my 6 years or so of working in diagnostic microbiology labs gives me some knowledge and experience to comment on this stuff

Originally Posted by VFX

How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

Okay, now you're just getting silly

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by VFX

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.