Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Myka

I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

Also, if you do catch H1N1 are you willing to completely isolate yourself so you you don't risk passing it on to somebody at greater risk of serious complications?

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by Myka

I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

Originally Posted by Ron99

Also, if you do catch H1N1 are you willing to completely isolate yourself so you you don't risk passing it on to somebody at greater risk of serious complications?

Welcome to my world. My Girlfriend was here for the weekend and we both started getting sick Sunday night. She's a teacher and had half of one of her classes missing on Friday and there are a few confirmed cases in her school. Monday morning I made some calls and let everyone know I would be out of action until I knew what was going on.

I'm feeling better today and never developed a bad fever so I don't have H1N1. I'm glad I decided to stay home though.

[VFX]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

H1N1 as some of you have stated is different from regular flu.

This is a strain that we have not seen before & hence it's more contagious as virtually nobody has a natural immunity to it.

Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).

There has been questions raised about the vaccine in regards to it's speed to market & to 'mistakes' that have occurred along the way. These have been well documented & anyone with access to Google can find them.

Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.

So no, flu vaccines have not changed that much in the last 30 yrs, but if people think they have ALL the information they need, they might be wrong.

The facts so far are:

1 - Risk of catching H1N1 - Minimal (5.26% of Canreefers so far)
2 - Risk of dying from H1N1 - Very small percentage of Minimal.
3 - Risk of contracting serious complications from taking vaccine - miniscule.

I guess you just choose your own risk level.

However, that still leaves too many questions about the true origins of H1N1, the speed at which the WHO have escalated the pandemic levels, & the worldwide vaccination program being 'forced' down our throats by the government & the media.

Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by VFX

Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).

Okay the vaccine NEEDS to have some form of H1N1 in it, that's how vaccines work, it's like training wheels for your immune system. You can't teach it to fight a virus without providing it something that very closely resembles the virus.

The fact that this vaccine uses attenuated (damaged but alive) virus rather than dead virus is again not especially new. This technique hasn't traditionally been used for flu vaccines but has been used before. It is preferred as it works better in healthy adults and has been used in mumps, measles, rubella and yellow fever for many years.

Originally Posted by VFX

Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.

The adjuvant was developed for use in the H5N1 vaccine GSK recently fielded, it made sense for them to use that as a starting point for the H1N1 vaccine. It was submitted first and got approved first. So what's your point?

Originally Posted by VFX

Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

I wouldn't say stupid, could 54% of Canreefers be wrong? Absolutely. More that once we've seen some very common misconceptions about reef keeping get shot to flames here, why should this be different?

[VFX]

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

.

Every single vaccine ever made has either dead or attenuated microbe or pieces of the microbe's proteins in it. Your body recognizes the foreign proteins as being "not you" and produces antibodies against it. That is how you develop immunity and how vaccines work. So every year new flu vaccines come out using the new strains of flu virus expected that year. There is nothing different about this.

The reason why people still get the flu after having flu shots is that the flu shots for each year are a best guess made by the medical community as to which 3 or 4 strains might be a problem in the coming flu season. Often they get one or more wrong. Also, other strains do occur as well but may be less common then the ones vaccinated against. So seasonal flu vaccines are often not 100% effective. Do not confuse that with the H1N1 vaccine though as that is a known strain and the vaccine is targeted at it.

Originally Posted by VFX

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

.

However, these adjuvants have been used in Europe for a long time and are well understood and tested there. The simple explanation is that adjuvants are extra ingredients that stimulate your immune system to produce a more vigorous response. It allows the vaccine to be effective but contain less virus. This was chosen to get the vaccine out sooner as growing H1N1 proved to be difficult and the supply of virus to make vaccines has been constrained.

Originally Posted by VFX

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

.

I'm sure we can find many many many examples of the majority being wrong

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

If I had to guess I would say it is just a combination of the current mass paranoia that seems to be developing over H1N1 coupled to ignorance. And I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm using "ignorant" in the exact definition as "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

I think since the average person has no substantial knowledge of medicine, microbiology, immunology, pharmaceutical science and epidemiology it is easy for them to get lost in the misinformation and silliness being reported. This is especially true with the internet where many things are written with little research or basis in facts and information.

I strongly believe that we should look at the big picture and work together to try to control the spread of pandemics which will likely be much more common in the future as the human population keeps growing and also global travel keeps increasing. it is very easy for a virus to travel to the other side of the globe in 1 or 2 days now compared to weeks to months 100 or more years ago.

I mentioned smallpox earlier. The only way smallpox was eliminated was through mass global vaccinations. Things like H1N1 and whatever comes next will also need similar responses to keep them under control. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals are heavily regulated. More so then almost any other product you will use. More so then cars for example. But when you get behind the wheel of a new car you trust that the regulations ensured the manufacturer built the car to have brakes that work and seat belts that work etc. Why should this be any different?

Government is usually pretty wasteful and stupid but if they are paying to have everybody vaccinated there is probably a pretty good reason for it. It's a lot of money that they can't use to line their own pockets or hand out to special interest groups for votes

[intarsiabox]

The adjuvant used is squalene based and has been used in the UK since 1997 with over 22 million doses given. The use of adjuvants is not new in Canada just in the flu shot. Meningitis and pneumonia vaccines have been using adjuvants in Canada for years.

Link to a CTV News question and answer report on the vaccine.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...725?hub=Health

Another link from the Globe and Mail with Canada's chief health officer stating that the vaccine does NOT contain a live virus as some sources have been stating.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1336764/

[Myka]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

I haven't had a vaccine since the Hepatitis C triple vaccine in grade 6, so I'm not exactly on the vaccine bandwagon. Call me ignorant, but enough other people will get vaccines that I have little to worry about. I haven't even had a "regular" flu in several years. I don't get sick very often. I had a cold last March though.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I'm not sure where I stand but my doctor who is also a family member, strongly advised myself and my fiancee who is asthmatic to NOT get the vaccine. His concern is not necessarily that anything sinister is going on here (nor do I) but simply that it was way too rushed as normal vaccinations for the flu are put under much more rigorous and longer term testing. He instead prescribed us tamiflu to have on hand. Asked us to keep up with our Vit. D, C, zinc, ect. along with a bunch of herbal suggestions.

He said its been a really tough subject at work lately as people ask him daily.

Actually both my brothers and mom have already had H1N1. One of my brothers was confirmed H1N1, so we assume the others also had it since it was all at the same time. Both my brothers got it very mildly although it lasted about 2 weeks. My mom was a little more severe I guess but she said the worst part was the aches.

[intarsiabox]

The vaccine has been in development since the end of April, exactly how long is the regular annual flu shot worked on? The researches need to figure out what the most common flu's of the season are going to be before any development is done so when do they start working on it? Anybody know anyone who works in vaccine mfg that would know the answer to this?

If the H1N1 vaccine wasn't "fast tracked" the same people complaining about it now would still be complaining but saying that the research companies are taking too long and people are dying needlessly. The conspiracy would still be the same though, the government is trying to reduce the population by not vaccinating instead of by vaccinating.

Where did H1N1 come from? There are fossilized viruses found in dinosaurs, despite small brains maybe they bio-engineered them? Where did the plague come from? How about tuberculosis? Wasting disease in wild animals? Viruses were here long before humans and have been killing and mutating since the dawn of time. After 4.5 billion years of virus evolution I'm sure there is going to be plenty more new viruses to found in the future. The wild can only support so much wildlife and when it gets overpopulated a virus shows up and culls the animals, how much of a human population will the earth support before we're culled? The plague wiped out 1/4 of the worlds population once, was it Utopia after that or just the same sad world we've made for ourselves?

Of course no one is the same, we all have a different genetic make up. There is always a risk with anything medical, with every medicine, vaccine, chemical or procedure there will always be someone with adverse side effects from it. Nothing is risk free, you could try a new dish at a restaurant and die from an unknown allergy, so you need to judge for yourself if the risks of a vaccination outweigh the risks of the disease.

Just remember, dead people don't pay taxes!