My new sulphur denitrator setup

[Delphinus]

Looks great. So is Brent making stuff again? When I wanted to buy a skimmer from him a couple years ago he had decided to take a break .. nowadays I know you can get the designs from Austin Aquatics but it's nice to hear he's back in business. He has some neat stuff.

Anyhow, good luck with this. Like that coarse media .. If I wasn't sitting on I think at least 2 containers of ARM I'd try some .. but I have to use this stuff up.

At least I think I can say I learned something with my sulfur denitrator that I hope can spare you some headaches in getting yours going. Although at one month in now and not outputting zero yet (but output is less than input so that's good) I think that it's good that you've oversized it, because despite that people tell me I should have an adequate media volume, the same flowrate into a larger vessel compared to a smaller vessel will be introducing "less O2 by volume" into the anaerobic zone, meaning hopefully a faster cycle.

I guess I can tell you to be suspicious of your test kits, sulfur interferes with them. Nitrites for sure, so don't bother testing nitrite.

Oh one more thought, Randy Holmes-Farley did this one write up where he sort of explains why the calcium from the second stage should be minimal .. (chemical equations and all), but I can tell you in the 8 weeks now of running mine (between the two "trials"), the calcium media in my second stage has gone down at least 2", maybe 3". So while it's theoretically negligible, IME it's non-zero. I haven't bothered testing alkalinity in this tank though as there is nothing in there that it's a huge concern for (corals can't live in nitrate soup). Just my ritteri anemone.

Which sort of leads me to my question for you though ... in my case, the ritteri is this weird nitrate-producing beast that I've learned to live with. Perhaps a stronger skimmer would help me in this regard but I'm curious what skimmer you're running on your system and whether you've given any thought to upgrading or modifications there (i.e., recirculation, gravity feed from raw overflow water, etc., or even just going to a larger skimmer)?

[Psyire]

Well Brent isn't into production anymore, he just is doing design now, from my understanding. But he does have a few of this and that left over to sell off. (listed on his website)

I like the coarse calcium media as well, and I'd like to get more coarse sulphur media if I can find some.. I have to do some looking around. I work at a plant in which we make 42 tons of sulpher every day, but I really have no way of 'beading' it. I suppose I could use broken chunks but I'm not sure if that would be very effective.

As for my skimmer, it's a Barr Aquatic SK1620. It works quite well and rated for twice my water volume, so I don't think I am under skimming, but it's amazing how much waste is created by 2 tangs & 2 rabbitfish. (plus various other small fish) I also have a fairly large LT Anenome and a Condy Anenome... plus various corals.

[untamed]

I don't understand this at all... I understand how a Ca reactor works...and I understand how a Nitrate reactor works...but I'm not clear on how/why you've got them together in this case. Or what advantage that brings.

I'll go back and look at my Holmes-Farley stuff, but does the Ca reactor somehow consume O2?

[Psyire]

Simply put...

The Nitrate reduction that occurs in the sulphur chamber reduces the pH to a point where the second chamber's calcium will dissolve and raise the pH back up before entering the tank.

[Delphinus]

A sulfur based denitrator uses aragonite media to buffer the output as it will be low in pH, so it conditions the effluent before being returned to the tank. Any sulfur based reactor has both sulfur media and calcium media, either mixed together as in the case of Caribsea "No-NO3" media, or in separate layers using Caribsea LSM (or other pure elemental sulfur granules) in one layer and a calcium reactor media in the other.

What Psyire (and I) have done with our reactors is use a 2 stage calcium reactor design and use exclusively sulfur in the first stage and exclusively aragonite in the second. Typically a 2 stage reactor uses recirculation on the first stage and single-pass on the second, which I think in the case of an anaerobic bacteria colony would only help with the overall efficacy of the reactor.

A calcium reactor does not consume O2 but uses CO2 to lower the pH to dissolve the aragonite media.

Psyire, what sort of nitrate levels are you running? While I'm excited that you're trying this, on the other hand that's not a heavy bioload for a 180g by any means.. I'm sort of surprised you would be having nitrate accumulation problems ... (bluntly put, you shouldn't be).

[Psyire]

Well...

I don't think I should have a nitrate problem either, but I have my theories...

#1, I used 100% base rock for the main display (180lbs). This baserock was from reefer rocks and is extremly porous and looks very nice. However, I believe it might be 'too' porous and not have a big enough oxygen free zone as traditional dense LR from the ocean. This would lead to a reduction in anerobic bacteria and an inherent inability to deal with as much nitrate conversion deep inside the LR.

#2, 1"-2" Sand bed. I did not want to go with a DSB and did not want to go with barebottom (at the time) Now I'm wishing I would have gone BB, as the detritus buildup would not sink into the shallow sand bed. The same problem as noted above essentially... Deep enough to convert to Nitrate, but not further.

Note: I have more tank inhabitants than I posted above, those are just the bigger ones... but you are right, it "should" have been fine. Tank has been setup and running for over a year and a half. Nitrate is anywhere from 50-100 depending on what's going on. (recent water change, etc)

Picture of rock for reference:

[Delphinus]

Hmm .. interesting. I would have guessed those rocks would be OK but who knows. Well it's just like my situation really, mathematically there's no reason for me to have had nitrates above 50 in the first place but it's been fairly consistent, and I've tried just about every other trick in the book (and gone though at least 4 tank setups as well). I guess sometimes it just happens ...

On the bright side it's down to the mid 20's now and appears to be coming down nicely still.

[untamed]

I'm really interested in this.

Sorry for tons of questions...
1) The sulfer based reaction has no need for low pH or CO2 addition, right?
2) Do you add CO2 to the Ca reaction chamber?
3) Is the Ca reaction chamber recirculated? Is the Nitrate reaction chamber recirculated? Both?
4) Do you have an additional Ca reactor, or is this your only Ca reactor?
5) Why the ORP sensor in the Nitrate chamber? Does the sulpher reaction also need to be in the absence of oxygen? If so, how is oxygen removed from this reactor?
6) Do you attempt to vent the N2 produced?...

Here's what Holmes-Farley had to say about it. I believe this was written in 2003.

Use a sulfur denitrator. In these systems, bacteria use elemental sulfur and produce N2 from it and nitrate according the following equation (or something similar):

2 H2O + 5 S + 6 NO3- à 3 N2 + 5 SO4-- + 4 H+

It has also been suggested to pass the effluent of such a reactor through a bed of aragonite to use the acid (H+) produced to dissolve the calcium carbonate, and thereby provide calcium and alkalinity to the aquarium.

While that is a fine idea, it doesn’t add much calcium and alkalinity to most aquaria.

To estimate the magnitude of the effect, we start with a liberal estimate of how much nitrate might be removed. Say 10 ppm of nitrate per week.

10 ppm nitrate = 0.16 mmole/L of nitrate

Since 4 moles of H+ are produced for every 6 moles of nitrate consumed, this will produce

0.107 mmoles/L of H+ per week

How much calcium this could produce?
Assume that it takes one proton to dissolve one calcium carbonate:

CaCO3 + H+ ßà Ca++ + HCO3-

Clearly, this is a substantial overestimate because much of the acid will be used up driving the pH down to the point where CaCO3 can even begin to dissolve. Consequently, we have an upside limit of

0.107 mmoles of Ca++ per week

since calcium weighs 40 mg/mmol, that's

4.3 ppm Ca++ per week.

For comparison, an aquarist adding 2% of the tank volume in saturated limewater daily is adding on the order of 16 ppm of calcium per day. Consequently, this method may not be especially useful for maintaining calcium and alkalinity levels. On the other hand, the acid produced will have a long term lowering effect on the alkalinity, so if you use it, watch the alkalinity.

As to its actual ability to reduce nitrate, I cannot say for sure. I expect that it can be made to work, but the only aquarist that I have spoken to that uses one has had considerable difficulty with it.