Complex Setups: What gives?

[rickjames]

Originally Posted by Moogled

What is another example of a piece of equipment that makes the overall reefkeeping experience easier?

Light timers, top off resevoir/float valve, and Calcium Reactor. I would go crazy without them.

I think there is a couple of reasons why complex tanks overall seem to do better. The biggest is experience. Usually everyone starts off with a little tank with a HOB skimmer and some maxijets. You don't usually see a newbie with Reactors/timers/wavemakers etc right away. An experienced reefer could run an excellent tank without that stuff. But it would be WAY more work.

Another reason is that while a setup might look complex, the goal is usually automation of the mundane tasks. Turning on/off lights, toping off the tank, replenishing Ca/Alk, making water current. When all of that is taken care of, you really start to enjoy your tank. You get to use your "reefing time" to do things you might not have had time for otherwise. Like tweaking Ca/ALk/Mg levels. Checking each coral colony for polyp expansion, health, and growth, feeding your fish and watching the frenzy, nuking those aptasias. Epoxying that frag you got last month to the rock instead of it rolling around on the bottom of the tank.

My tank is in a public office so I usually get a lot of questions about how hard it is to maintain and why it looks so clean. I always tell them "you get out what you put in". A complex setup will help, but the more time you put in to a tank the better and healthier it will look.

[Chin_Lee]

Complexity is a very relative term in this hobby. When starting out in this hobby, just learning about the balance between pH, Alk, Cal, Mg had my mind spinning. As I became more familiar with the basics, my curiousity into other aspects of the hobby expanded to Calcium reactors, kalk dosing, skimmers etc.
I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.
As complex as some systems may be, there is not one guaranteed recipe of success when putting together a tank which results in continuous modifications and improvements to our existing "already-complexed" systems. Fortunately this is where new ideas and methods are created and the internet has provided the gateway for the new information to be shared and tried by other hobbyists - a positive cycle of information sharing.

[kwirky]

Originally Posted by Chin_Lee

Complexity is a very relative term in this hobby. When starting out in this hobby, just learning about the balance between pH, Alk, Cal, Mg had my mind spinning. As I became more familiar with the basics, my curiousity into other aspects of the hobby expanded to Calcium reactors, kalk dosing, skimmers etc.
I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.

I have a DIY auto-top off that's not very complex, but it does make tank maintenance simpler. I just fill the 6 gallon glass jug with water, and it lasts about 2 days. It tops off twice a day for me, while I only have to fill the jug every second day. I do plan on upgrading it to something quite complex to just top it off straight from the RO/DI. It'll have an autofilling resevoir (to prevent TDS creep) and multiple float switches to add safety.

as for complexity for simplistic's sake, there's some people who argue the difference between calcium reactors and dosing pumps. I'm planning on upgrading to the way of the dosing pump because it's simpler than a calcium reactor and much simpler than measuring dosages on a daily basis.

[Delphinus]

That's exactly it - you do what works for you to keep things simple from your perspective.

In my case, I tried dosing and I tried calcium reactors. For me, nothing beats the "set and forget" part of the calcium reactor. If I go away on a trip, my tank sitter doesn't have to do any kind of dosing, just check to make sure things are running. For me, that's simpler. But if another way seems simpler to you, then that's not wrong either.

Basically Chin nailed it:

I currently have a lot of "gadgets" in and out of my sump and while they may seem overwhelming, each and every item has a specific function to simplify the complexity of the hobby. Understanding the functionality of each gadget will reduce the perception of complexity.
As complex as some systems may be, there is not one guaranteed recipe of success when putting together a tank which results in continuous modifications and improvements to our existing "already-complexed" systems.

I totally agree. (Although it seems to me that was the point I was originally trying to make, so I guess I'm just agreeing with myself now. Haha oh well.) Point is, it only seems overwhelming if you don't understand what it's for. And you should not do anything if you don't understand why you're doing it. So while someone says "you should use halides" (or whatever), if you don't understand why you need halides, then you don't need them. As your experience grows and your interests shift, you may realize that you do one day need them. But until then .. it's whatever makes your tank work, that works.

[draco]

I would say start off small,Everyone I know has had a crash,the bigger the more expensive it is to recover,And if you start off simple you get a better understanding of how everything works.When you want to upgrade the best thing is to ask on canreef,there will always be someone out there that is upgrading one step more than you,you can get your upgrade for half the price of new.keep reading other peoples problems it helps so you dont make the same mistake.The people here know more than your local petstore,they have had these problems,the guy at the petstore needed a job!We started with a 55 gal with pc and now we upgraded to a 90 gal with halides and overflows and sump.I would have been lost with out having had the 55gal first,and with out the people here anwsering all my questions.Good Luck

[Myanth]

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

[Chaotic Cricket]

Originally Posted by Myanth

I'll chime in here but you have to remember that I build my system to be as self sufficient as possible and I don't dabble in expensive (okay really expensive) or really fragile livestock. I don't overload on Bio producers and I have a huge cleaning crew (approx 100 hermits and 80 snails, not including the ones breeding in the rock)

I have a lot of liverock. 140lb in a 90 gal tank with 15-20 gal sump. I think that is the most important part. I have two 250W MH lights with parabolic reflectors. I change 10-15 % water once a month. I use filtered well water which is already high in calcium. I have a sump and a SEIO pump in the tank. Water flow is as essential as liverock. I would not run without a skimmer and I got a bubble king from Snappy that is trouble free.

I add nothing as a general rule. The minor water changes keep everything pretty much up. I add calcium if my coral growth rate seems slow (I do measure first) and magnesium if my KH is too high, which my well water seems to contribute to.

I have recently been running a 50 micron filter in the sump for esthetics, keeping the water clear.

I have macro algea growth in the tank which seems to keep phospates down.

Basically I like to have a functioning ecosystem. And it works for me.

I feed the eleven fish I have only twice a week and only about a quarter sized frozen piece of mysis. And some Nori on no real schedule.

It works for me, but only after a lot of learning and a lot of research.

It really does take a lot of work to be this lazy.

So would you still put two clowns in ten gallons

[Doug]

And whats the matter with hang on skimmers.

[Johnny Reefer]

I agree with the statement that complexity, with regard to this hobby, is relative. The definition of such can be as broad as there is people in the hobby.

As some of you know, I recently upgraded both my Reef and FOWLR systems. One of the reasons being to simplify things. But there is a point where I draw the line. I currently am not running my PhosBan reactor. It’s sitting idle in a closet. I run RowaPhos in a canister (along with carbon). I am not convinced...yet...that the reactor is any better than the canister and running the Rowa in the canister...for me...is simpler. While doing the upgrades I was considering a UV sterilizer. I decided to hold off on that....for now. I’m not sure that that is necessary and the downside to it is that it also kills off good stuff. And the day I get lighting that simulates Cumulonimbus cloud cover is the day I win the lottery.

But one thing that I really can’t get my head around is the benefits off a Ca reactor vs. manual dosing. I’ve never seen a Ca reactor, so I just don’t know much about them. (Ca reactor dummy here). I test Ca once a week. If it’s down, I go to the Reef Chemistry calculator to determine the amount required to bring it up to what I want. Then put a couple of cups of sump water in a jug. Measure the required amount of Ca and add it to the jug. Stir it up and pour it into the sump. Test the next day again. Done. I don’t find it to be much of a burden. Is there not a trade off of chores with having a Ca reactor? I get that it eliminates manual dosing, but what about maintaining the lower pH required within a Ca reactor? Also, does it need cleaning every so often? Then there’s the CO2. How much “hands on” does that require?

I guess, long question short.....what maintenance does a Ca reactor require?

Thanx much,

[Snappy]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

That's exactly it - you do what works for you to keep things simple from your perspective.

In my case, I tried dosing and I tried calcium reactors. For me, nothing beats the "set and forget" part of the calcium reactor. If I go away on a trip, my tank sitter doesn't have to do any kind of dosing, just check to make sure things are running. For me, that's simpler. But if another way seems simpler to you, then that's not wrong either.

Basically Chin nailed it:
I totally agree. (Although it seems to me that was the point I was originally trying to make, so I guess I'm just agreeing with myself now. Haha oh well.) Point is, it only seems overwhelming if you don't understand what it's for. And you should not do anything if you don't understand why you're doing it. So while someone says "you should use halides" (or whatever), if you don't understand why you need halides, then you don't need them. As your experience grows and your interests shift, you may realize that you do one day need them. But until then .. it's whatever makes your tank work, that works.

These statements describe what I was trying to say a lot better than I did. However in my previous post I said I couldn't run my system without a skimmer, and that is true but I have a larger than average bioload. Last summer my skimmer crapped out on me for a few months and I battled huge algae problems because of it. It got so bad it was literally killing corals and took about 7 months to get rid of it. I agree with what's been said in that adding more equipment make the hobby less complex. I can now spend more time enjoying the tank instead of just always working on it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed working on it and learned a lot but it seemed I spent most of the time just putting out fires. With a little more automated system it is now less hectic and has fewer emergencies. I still have a long way to go before it's fully automated so I still do regular maintanence but it's just easier than it once was.