Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[VFX]

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

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[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

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Every single vaccine ever made has either dead or attenuated microbe or pieces of the microbe's proteins in it. Your body recognizes the foreign proteins as being "not you" and produces antibodies against it. That is how you develop immunity and how vaccines work. So every year new flu vaccines come out using the new strains of flu virus expected that year. There is nothing different about this.

The reason why people still get the flu after having flu shots is that the flu shots for each year are a best guess made by the medical community as to which 3 or 4 strains might be a problem in the coming flu season. Often they get one or more wrong. Also, other strains do occur as well but may be less common then the ones vaccinated against. So seasonal flu vaccines are often not 100% effective. Do not confuse that with the H1N1 vaccine though as that is a known strain and the vaccine is targeted at it.

Originally Posted by VFX

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

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However, these adjuvants have been used in Europe for a long time and are well understood and tested there. The simple explanation is that adjuvants are extra ingredients that stimulate your immune system to produce a more vigorous response. It allows the vaccine to be effective but contain less virus. This was chosen to get the vaccine out sooner as growing H1N1 proved to be difficult and the supply of virus to make vaccines has been constrained.

Originally Posted by VFX

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

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I'm sure we can find many many many examples of the majority being wrong

Originally Posted by VFX

What's my point?

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

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If I had to guess I would say it is just a combination of the current mass paranoia that seems to be developing over H1N1 coupled to ignorance. And I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm using "ignorant" in the exact definition as "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

I think since the average person has no substantial knowledge of medicine, microbiology, immunology, pharmaceutical science and epidemiology it is easy for them to get lost in the misinformation and silliness being reported. This is especially true with the internet where many things are written with little research or basis in facts and information.

I strongly believe that we should look at the big picture and work together to try to control the spread of pandemics which will likely be much more common in the future as the human population keeps growing and also global travel keeps increasing. it is very easy for a virus to travel to the other side of the globe in 1 or 2 days now compared to weeks to months 100 or more years ago.

I mentioned smallpox earlier. The only way smallpox was eliminated was through mass global vaccinations. Things like H1N1 and whatever comes next will also need similar responses to keep them under control. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals are heavily regulated. More so then almost any other product you will use. More so then cars for example. But when you get behind the wheel of a new car you trust that the regulations ensured the manufacturer built the car to have brakes that work and seat belts that work etc. Why should this be any different?

Government is usually pretty wasteful and stupid but if they are paying to have everybody vaccinated there is probably a pretty good reason for it. It's a lot of money that they can't use to line their own pockets or hand out to special interest groups for votes

[intarsiabox]

The adjuvant used is squalene based and has been used in the UK since 1997 with over 22 million doses given. The use of adjuvants is not new in Canada just in the flu shot. Meningitis and pneumonia vaccines have been using adjuvants in Canada for years.

Link to a CTV News question and answer report on the vaccine.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...725?hub=Health

Another link from the Globe and Mail with Canada's chief health officer stating that the vaccine does NOT contain a live virus as some sources have been stating.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1336764/

[VFX]

Just for the record my partner works in Pharmacuetics so I do know a thing or 2 about how flu vaccines & other medicines work & how they're made. I've bugged her endlessly on this!

As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?

The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?

People are saying 22m doses of squalene based adjuvant enhanced flu vaccine has been administered without 'severe' events being noted. What they don't say is that the adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccine is not just made from shark liver oil but has added mineral & other bio content.

What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons.

As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die.

As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here.

To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know?

How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

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[noirsphynx]

http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/...ccine-dangers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by noirsphynx

http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/...ccine-dangers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n

For video number 1 I would take anything found on that website with a huge grain of salt. A bunch of sound bites from people does not constitute any real facts or conclusions. In any group of people; scientists and doctors included, you will find dissenters and people who disagree with the evidence or accepted conclusions.

Video number 2 is a bit more balanced but agin does not sound any alarms. Yes, there are slight risks associated with vaccines. They occur something like 1 in a million doses. That is a very good safety profile. I can give you examples of many approved (and considered generally safe) drugs with much more common side effects than that. I believe the doctor does go on to state that maybe 1 in 100 people who contract H1N1 will have severe illness, possibly even death. Well, a 1% chance of becoming very ill or dieing is much higher then a 0.0001% chance of having a reaction to the vaccine. I know what odds I want to play.

[VFX]

Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

GSP - did you get a preventative Tamiflu 'script because of your asthma condition?

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

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[Ron99]

Originally Posted by VFX

As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?.

That Depends on how it mutates. The current vaccine may still provide full immunity, partial immunity or none at all. Can't predict that in advance. It depends on how it mutates.

Originally Posted by VFX

The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?.

The adjuvants are there to boost effectiveness when you don't have enough virus to make a full strength vaccine. Growing a flu virus in a lab culture is different then where the virus normally grows in human tissue. It is not the virus' normal environment so it may not grow anywhere near as well in culture. It would be like trying to grow SPS at the bottom of a 24" tank with some PC lighting. It might survive and maybe even grow really slowly but nowhere near as well as in its optimal conditions. Not the best analogy but something we can relate to on this board.

Originally Posted by VFX

What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons..

Maybe a bit different then the typical North American flu vaccine but it is very similar to the European vaccines that have been used for years in millions of people. So we have all that data on it.

Originally Posted by VFX

As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die..

Yeah, that is a more extreme example. However, as has been pointed out, this strain of flu is more virulent then the usual seasonal flu and is killing people that would not normally be considered as high risk from regular seasonal flu. yes, it is still a relatively small number but it is significantly higher then regular seasonal flu. Young children are considered a higher risk group in H1N1. I would rather take the chance of a 1 in a million side effect in my kids then the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 chance they could become seriously ill or die from H1N1. I would also not want to be the guy that gave H1N1 flu to somebody who ends up dead.

Originally Posted by VFX

As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here..

As I said, I wasn't trying to be insulting and it was more a general comment that a lot of the fear and uncertainty is coming from ignorance and misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by VFX

To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know? .

Well, I would hope that my degrees in pharmacoloy and toxicology coupled to my 15 years of work in the pharmaceutical industry and my earlier undergraduate education in microbiology and my 6 years or so of working in diagnostic microbiology labs gives me some knowledge and experience to comment on this stuff

Originally Posted by VFX

How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

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Okay, now you're just getting silly

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by VFX

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.

[VFX]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.

Please don't be so insulting. There's obviously a sar-chasm between us.

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