Vendors! Take care of the live rock!!!

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

It is very important.. if you have a good skimmer on your rock curing tank the vendor can save a lot of money in waterchanges and it is more efficent than doing the waterchanges also as it is continuiously removing the "crap" where the waterchanges will let the levels build up then gone. also there is a much higher survival rate for bugs when you use a skimmer as there is less shock to them due to waterchanges and less spiking of amonia, nitrate and nitrite. Just like in our tanks the more stable the better and the common problem is that people see rock as a decoration not as one of the most important biological additions to our tank.

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.
Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

I think people just enjoy blaming LFSs in general for all their hobby related problems which in my mind is taking the easy way out. You have to deal with whats available to you and make your own decisions, you always have a choice and ignorance is a poor excuse. Educate yourselves, make your own decisions and take responsibility for your actions otherwise jump of a bridge because I told you so

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by BlueWorldAquatic

Not ALL vendors do that, I can attest to that and any of my customers will also agree as 90% of all the rock in the store is fair game to the customers. I can speak the same of some of the other LPS in the area.


I have seen the large holding tanks full of rock also like all of you.

That is why we try to keep our rock nice and healthy. Actually most of ours will be cured and clean when it is ready for sale. We have ours mainly in with the systems where we have our acclimized fish in.

We have 2 120 gal tanks with skimmers and heaters taking care of the "New" rock where we can actually cure them before they are introduced into our marine population.

Ken - BWA

Glad you spoke up because I was going to say Blue World takes good care of their LR.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Let me guess, best products, best staff and lowest prices?? Now that's funny Good luck with that!

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by fishoholic

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best. I'm sure the prices are good but I would bet stuff can be found cheaper elsewhere. You can't have the best of everything, sorry but it can't be done, at least not for long anyway.

Our LFS here has great products, service and prices too but some people still complain because one particular item is $1 cheaper at J&L.

[pastout]

well people who complain about that are just someone who is going to bitch about everything. Honestly if that’s all your trying to use as your argument

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best

like come on do you actually expect them to check every store in every province to try and make sure they have the lowest price. I mean your taking a fish store not Wal-Mart.

I mean all is your doing in dissecting a statement. All a business can do is be competitively priced for the market. and carry a good selection of equipment or great selection. because hey not everyone wants to spend 1300$ on a bubble king protein skimmer and just wants a cheaper one. These people are running a business and I think there are a few out there who do a good job and I mean it would be stupid to go into a store and be like how could you mark things up. that would be like your boss saying to you hey um I know I pay you 40$ an hour but I mean I think you could live of 12$ an hour that’s fair right?

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by pastout

well people who complain about that are just someone who is going to bitch about everything. Honestly if that’s all your trying to use as your argument



like come on do you actually expect them to check every store in every province to try and make sure they have the lowest price. I mean your taking a fish store not Wal-Mart.

I mean all is your doing in dissecting a statement. All a business can do is be competitively priced for the market. and carry a good selection of equipment or great selection. because hey not everyone wants to spend 1300$ on a bubble king protein skimmer and just wants a cheaper one. These people are running a business and I think there are a few out there who do a good job and I mean it would be stupid to go into a store and be like how could you mark things up. that would be like your boss saying to you hey um I know I pay you 40$ an hour but I mean I think you could live of 12$ an hour that’s fair right?

Exactly my points, my argument is for the LFS not against them. People do just like to complain about everything and stores do their best to compete but you simply can't be the best at everything, no small chain store can compete with Walmart prices or selection. The same comparison could be made in regards to certain fish stores, retail is retail.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.

this is where we will have to agree to disagree, I have cured with out a skimmer and with a skimmer.. much better results with the skimmer. problem with out it is that you are still going to expose your rock to much higher levels than you would with it. the other problem is wherew is all the junk the skimmer would pull out go if you don't use one. inside the rock and will start the plugging up phase.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

thge only way just letting your rock soak in a container and changing the water will be cheaper is if you are lazy and or only doing one batch.

you figure 1000lbs of live rock which would be a normal size order is going to need 500gal of water to be in the holding area. so this is about 2.5 buckets of salt. to properly cure rock you need to do about 4 waterchanges so say.. 10 buckets of salt. now if you use a good skimmer you could easily cut out two of thoes waterchanges saving about 5 buckets of salt. which is a good chunk of money towards a good skimmer after only one batch.

and good skimming and dosing is very much a good way to reduce the amount of water changes required.. a water changed is to clean and replace, if you keep the water clean and replace elements you are acomplishing the exact same thing... In the 7 years I ran my big tank I started off with monthly waterchanges, then bi-monthly, then a few times a year, then to once a year.. no differance and everything thrived. now would I recomend this would out the use of a Ca reactor with good median and a good skimmer.. no.

as for water changes anyone who is doing 10% a month, or even a week and thinks they are doing good, better think again.. in order for any waterchange to do what people think they are doing you got to be going at least 50% preferably more

Originally Posted by sphelps

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

Um.. you need to re read.. that is what I said . that was only what I would like to do but as I said in the post it is not reasonable for a store due to the investment and time vs. proffit per sq^ft.

as for people like to blame there LFS.. up totaly agree, but also know there is a lot of bad advice from LFS out there and that a lot of people do look to there LFS as knowing what to do.. they are the professionals in this area are they not? so if you see what they are doing and there tanks look nice and you don't know about the 10 fish/ day they take out of there tanks dead, or that they lose 50% of there corals how do you know any better. The stores don't worry to much as these are losses and the amount of loss is small.. that coral some places are charging 110.00 for cost the store 5 to 10 bucks, most fish that are 80 to 150.. 5 to 15 bucks. plus shipping, but at 50 bucks shipping on a box that you can get 10 to 18 corals in that isn't realy much. now rock is a weird one as there is no loss to the store and they put more of a mark up on it that on the corals and fish, but the rock doesn't die.. and if it does then they just put it in with some new rock and bring it back so rock is a huge profit maker.

I don't need to see a store with the best products, lowest prices, ect.. what I would like to see is a store with knowalgeable mature staff that has exelent customer service and gives very good advice, heck even lets you know the different ways there are to skin a cat and lets you know where to find the information so tyou can make an informed discision. or even will engage in a discussion of a peticular method. prices,, they can be a little more as people value good, friendly, customer service and knowlage and that will compensate for a little higher price as long as it isn't outragious. I have though a couple times about opening a store myself, but in victoria the market wouldn't suppot it and I don't think there is anough of a market in kamloops either for a salt water only store.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Our LFS here has great products, service and prices too but some people still complain because one particular item is $1 cheaper at J&L.

your always going to have thoes people.. I have a friend who has never paid full price for anything.. I don't know how he does it but he gets discounts from anystore he goes to.

my personal theory on mail order from say J&L is that if I am paying so much plus 25 for shipping when I go into the LFS as long as it is under the total I would have paid with shipping I buy it there.. that allows the LFS to have prices that are a little higher and still get my business.

Steve

[untamed]

The thing that comes to my mind is that there are very different consumer expectations as to what constitutes "live rock".

For me...I would want rock available to me as quickly as possible to preserve as much life as possible. That likely means getting the "good" life along with the "challenging" life. LR was/is the most expensive life in my tank. I would want it handled like very expensive fish from start to finish.

Others want their LR all "cured", or "cooked" by the store first. They don't want it to contain any kind of algae or life that might die off in their tanks. Some evaluate the quality of LR only by its porosity and shape.

So, I suppose a store has to make a decision about what their customers want from LR and attempt to handle and price it appropriately.

[JDigital]

I can't really say anything bad about the LR from Red Coral... I had 80-85lbs in my 75G tank, and I NEVER saw a single bit of algae on it in the 9-10months that tank was running. I give credit to RC for how they process their LR when it comes in. They do a thorough job and charge an average price compared to other shops.


Certainly isn't fair to make a blanket statement to all vendors...

[whatcaneyedo]

I didnt see any mention of LR being blanketed in aptasia.... Obviously aptasia exists in the wild and some of it could hitch a ride in on a shipment of LR. I can believe that. But when a LFS has a LR tank that doesnt have any aptasia and then a customer tears down their tank and sells/give their LR to the store which is blanketed in huge aptasia why would they put the two together? It wasnt only the LR tank that got it that day. They put that aptasia infested rock throughout all of their stores systems! Did I forget to mention that they ask $12/lbs for it too? Or $8/lbs if you buy over 20lbs... something like that.

At least I can be thankful that our LFS has a skimmer on their LR tank. Now if only they had a working skimmer on their coral tank...