Vendors! Take care of the live rock!!!

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

On a second note I see very little importance on having a skimmer on a live rock holding tank. Clean and warm saltwater is the only real requirement. If you keep volume small it's probably better to simply change the water completely every so often using discarded water from other systems.

It is very important.. if you have a good skimmer on your rock curing tank the vendor can save a lot of money in waterchanges and it is more efficent than doing the waterchanges also as it is continuiously removing the "crap" where the waterchanges will let the levels build up then gone. also there is a much higher survival rate for bugs when you use a skimmer as there is less shock to them due to waterchanges and less spiking of amonia, nitrate and nitrite. Just like in our tanks the more stable the better and the common problem is that people see rock as a decoration not as one of the most important biological additions to our tank.

It is attitiudes and lack of education in a lot of LFS' that cause this thinking and it is realy sad that people will spend thousands on corals and fish, but yet will find the most used oldest rock they can and just throw it in there. old rock is exactly that old rock.. it isn't wine it doesn't get better with age. its ability to filter and help to prevent algae declines with age.. it cazn be rejuvinated but this requires a lot of time and work and is called "cooking" the rock. I would never add rock to my system that has been in some one elses tank for a long time with out cooking it first.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

It is very important.. if you have a good skimmer on your rock curing tank the vendor can save a lot of money in waterchanges and it is more efficent than doing the waterchanges also as it is continuiously removing the "crap" where the waterchanges will let the levels build up then gone. also there is a much higher survival rate for bugs when you use a skimmer as there is less shock to them due to waterchanges and less spiking of amonia, nitrate and nitrite. Just like in our tanks the more stable the better and the common problem is that people see rock as a decoration not as one of the most important biological additions to our tank.

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.
Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

I think people just enjoy blaming LFSs in general for all their hobby related problems which in my mind is taking the easy way out. You have to deal with whats available to you and make your own decisions, you always have a choice and ignorance is a poor excuse. Educate yourselves, make your own decisions and take responsibility for your actions otherwise jump of a bridge because I told you so

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.

this is where we will have to agree to disagree, I have cured with out a skimmer and with a skimmer.. much better results with the skimmer. problem with out it is that you are still going to expose your rock to much higher levels than you would with it. the other problem is wherew is all the junk the skimmer would pull out go if you don't use one. inside the rock and will start the plugging up phase.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

thge only way just letting your rock soak in a container and changing the water will be cheaper is if you are lazy and or only doing one batch.

you figure 1000lbs of live rock which would be a normal size order is going to need 500gal of water to be in the holding area. so this is about 2.5 buckets of salt. to properly cure rock you need to do about 4 waterchanges so say.. 10 buckets of salt. now if you use a good skimmer you could easily cut out two of thoes waterchanges saving about 5 buckets of salt. which is a good chunk of money towards a good skimmer after only one batch.

and good skimming and dosing is very much a good way to reduce the amount of water changes required.. a water changed is to clean and replace, if you keep the water clean and replace elements you are acomplishing the exact same thing... In the 7 years I ran my big tank I started off with monthly waterchanges, then bi-monthly, then a few times a year, then to once a year.. no differance and everything thrived. now would I recomend this would out the use of a Ca reactor with good median and a good skimmer.. no.

as for water changes anyone who is doing 10% a month, or even a week and thinks they are doing good, better think again.. in order for any waterchange to do what people think they are doing you got to be going at least 50% preferably more

Originally Posted by sphelps

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

Um.. you need to re read.. that is what I said . that was only what I would like to do but as I said in the post it is not reasonable for a store due to the investment and time vs. proffit per sq^ft.

as for people like to blame there LFS.. up totaly agree, but also know there is a lot of bad advice from LFS out there and that a lot of people do look to there LFS as knowing what to do.. they are the professionals in this area are they not? so if you see what they are doing and there tanks look nice and you don't know about the 10 fish/ day they take out of there tanks dead, or that they lose 50% of there corals how do you know any better. The stores don't worry to much as these are losses and the amount of loss is small.. that coral some places are charging 110.00 for cost the store 5 to 10 bucks, most fish that are 80 to 150.. 5 to 15 bucks. plus shipping, but at 50 bucks shipping on a box that you can get 10 to 18 corals in that isn't realy much. now rock is a weird one as there is no loss to the store and they put more of a mark up on it that on the corals and fish, but the rock doesn't die.. and if it does then they just put it in with some new rock and bring it back so rock is a huge profit maker.

I don't need to see a store with the best products, lowest prices, ect.. what I would like to see is a store with knowalgeable mature staff that has exelent customer service and gives very good advice, heck even lets you know the different ways there are to skin a cat and lets you know where to find the information so tyou can make an informed discision. or even will engage in a discussion of a peticular method. prices,, they can be a little more as people value good, friendly, customer service and knowlage and that will compensate for a little higher price as long as it isn't outragious. I have though a couple times about opening a store myself, but in victoria the market wouldn't suppot it and I don't think there is anough of a market in kamloops either for a salt water only store.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

this is where we will have to agree to disagree, I have cured with out a skimmer and with a skimmer.. much better results with the skimmer. problem with out it is that you are still going to expose your rock to much higher levels than you would with it. the other problem is wherew is all the junk the skimmer would pull out go if you don't use one. inside the rock and will start the plugging up phase.

Agreed to disagree. Curing rock in the aquarium is somewhat different, you don't typically change more than 50% of the water at one time. If you cured your rock in a separate container (like many people do) you could simply change 100% of the water time and time again until you were satisfied. Your water volume would be small in comparison to the amount of rock you have or compared to your display tank volume. In such case I see little need for a skimmer and don't think it would be worth using. Curing rock in your display is different and could certainly benefit from a skimmer but this isn't the best way to cure rock.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

you figure 1000lbs of live rock which would be a normal size order is going to need 500gal of water to be in the holding area. so this is about 2.5 buckets of salt. to properly cure rock you need to do about 4 waterchanges so say.. 10 buckets of salt. now if you use a good skimmer you could easily cut out two of thoes waterchanges saving about 5 buckets of salt. which is a good chunk of money towards a good skimmer after only one batch.

and good skimming and dosing is very much a good way to reduce the amount of water changes required.. a water changed is to clean and replace, if you keep the water clean and replace elements you are acomplishing the exact same thing... In the 7 years I ran my big tank I started off with monthly waterchanges, then bi-monthly, then a few times a year, then to once a year.. no differance and everything thrived. now would I recomend this would out the use of a Ca reactor with good median and a good skimmer.. no.

I would argue a much smaller volume for that amount of rock. In addition you would need a skimmer rated for an equivalent of 1000 gallons to hand that much dead rock if not bigger. The cost of the skimmer, it's power consumption and maintenance would likely not pay for itself in a long time. Salt is fairly cheap to a vendor and could always use water changed from other systems for the live rock tank. Also no skimmer will replace water changes nor will it ever be as effective as removing nutrients and contaminants than the good old water change. I can guarantee you that any skimmer on a live rock tank will be more trouble than it's worth. Plus the skimmer seems to be the easy way out, using a skimmer and doing less water changes may be cheaper depending on how you look at it but certainly not better than changing all the water frequently. In terms of quality what is best? I would bet many vendors through little skimmers on there live rock tanks which are more decorative than anything, with the main purpose to impress customers.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Um.. you need to re read.. that is what I said . that was only what I would like to do but as I said in the post it is not reasonable for a store due to the investment and time vs. proffit per sq^ft.

That wasn't really referring to your post, just a general statement. However while on the subject if you agree a vendor can't possibly keep rock for long periods of time how could a skimmer possibly benefit such a system? Skimmers require time to remove nutrients while a simple 100% change removes them all in one go. Seems like a better solution in my mind. Skimmers simply aren't designed to remove large amounts of nutrients that quickly, they are steady state machines.


People at LFS are not professionals by any means in fact I don't know anyone who is a professional in that particular industry. How do you define professional?? Profit margins aren't large enough to employ such "professionals", you're stuck with minimum wage type employees who can bag a fish but certainly aren't experts. The only exception we get these days are the small chain stores which are run by the actual owner who tend to be very knowledgeable, however even with these stores it's only a matter of time before extra staff is brought in.

Of course we don't need the best of everything and that was certainly not my point. My point was that no store can be the best at everything and different stores will tend to focus more on certain things and not on others. This is why not all vendors will focus too much time and effort on live rock.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

People at LFS are not professionals by any means in fact I don't know anyone who is a professional in that particular industry. How do you define professional?? Profit margins aren't large enough to employ such "professionals", you're stuck with minimum wage type employees who can bag a fish but certainly aren't experts. The only exception we get these days are the small chain stores which are run by the actual owner who tend to be very knowledgeable, however even with these stores it's only a matter of time before extra staff is brought in.

actualy by def they are professionals

"n - One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation"

I would never cure the rock in my tank, unless it was a brand new tank set up then why not.. the rock I have cured I have done so in a seperat tank for only the rock.. when I did just waterchanges I actualy had two tanks, when I saw a spike, I would rince the rock and move it to the new water.. then back again for the next spike.. when I did the skimmer method I had the added bonus of being able to keep snails and hermits in with the rock to clean it up with out any die off of the clean up crue. doing this the other way would have resulted in massive death of snails and some hermits.

now having said that I have never been accused of under skimming either

at any rate, no store is going to do 100% water changes either.. to expensive. for one you got the water, the wages for the person doing it and the cost of the salt and wear and tear on the ro filters or DI canisters, electricity to heat the water, space for water while it is heating ect.. . Concider what a store will pay for a huge skimmer.. not near what they charge us and it is a write off as an operating cost. A relitivly new store in Vic has huge skimmers on there rock, they may do water changes also, but they seam to be providing the best enviorment they can.

As well when a store normaly gets rock in it is still pretty fresh and there is minimal die off so realy the load on the skimmer isn't that great. But I think more important would be the "no light" which I don't see anyone doing as they want to move the rock out as fast as they can.

I know store owners don't want to dedicate the Sq^ft to taking care of rock, but if they were going to dedicate it to any type of live stock that is the one to do it with.. as there is no losses so the amout of floor space is always good to make money.. now having said that I would definatly try to do a rack system to minimize the floor area.

one of the better stores for rock (well at least 8 years ago) had two 500 gal containers for rock.. never did a waterchange and was horably under skimmed, but the rock still came out nice. the problem is that LR is a filter in its self and will clear up a horable tank, but another problem arizes from this in that the more rock sucks up the more its pours become plugged up and the less it can filter.. so a store that just dumps rock in a tank and lets it sit till it is cured is decreasing the life span of the rock.. as far as for what I have seen for water changes the stores that do do them usaly do so after the rock had cleared the water so at that point they are doing nothing but waisting salt. what they need to do is conduct a water change as soon as they notice amonia in order to get the crap out of the water.


anyways we've beet this to death.. stores will do one or the other or a combanation of both.. some will light some won't, so decide what you want and find a store that does it that way

Steve

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Salt is fairly cheap to a vendor and could always use water changed from other systems for the live rock tank. I can guarantee you that any skimmer on a live rock tank will be more trouble than it's worth. Plus the skimmer seems to be the easy way out, using a skimmer and doing less water changes may be cheaper depending on how you look at it but certainly not better than changing all the water frequently. In terms of quality what is best? I would bet many vendors through little skimmers on there live rock tanks which are more decorative than anything, with the main purpose to impress customers.

Salt is by no means cheap to any vendor. To ship salt (which is bought by the pallet) is very expensive.

The last IO order I got in on with a local vendor the salt came to roughly $32/bucket by the time it got to the doors. This was the sale price at the large vendor expo in vancouver. If your buying many more pallets at a time I can see it being cheaper but we just dont have that turn over. BTW this was shipped right from the factory.

As for the skimmer we have them on our LR tanks and your right the amount of stuff actually pulled by the skimmer is very little. We have a big Vertex on our rock tank but it is still pulling some protiens out.

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Who cares?

Just buy the rock from wherever you want and let the vendors do what they want. It's the same as buying anything, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. Simple.

Very well said. I couldnt agree more.

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by BlueWorldAquatic

Not ALL vendors do that, I can attest to that and any of my customers will also agree as 90% of all the rock in the store is fair game to the customers. I can speak the same of some of the other LPS in the area.


I have seen the large holding tanks full of rock also like all of you.

That is why we try to keep our rock nice and healthy. Actually most of ours will be cured and clean when it is ready for sale. We have ours mainly in with the systems where we have our acclimized fish in.

We have 2 120 gal tanks with skimmers and heaters taking care of the "New" rock where we can actually cure them before they are introduced into our marine population.

Ken - BWA

Glad you spoke up because I was going to say Blue World takes good care of their LR.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Let me guess, best products, best staff and lowest prices?? Now that's funny Good luck with that!

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by fishoholic

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best. I'm sure the prices are good but I would bet stuff can be found cheaper elsewhere. You can't have the best of everything, sorry but it can't be done, at least not for long anyway.

Our LFS here has great products, service and prices too but some people still complain because one particular item is $1 cheaper at J&L.

[pastout]

well people who complain about that are just someone who is going to bitch about everything. Honestly if that’s all your trying to use as your argument

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best

like come on do you actually expect them to check every store in every province to try and make sure they have the lowest price. I mean your taking a fish store not Wal-Mart.

I mean all is your doing in dissecting a statement. All a business can do is be competitively priced for the market. and carry a good selection of equipment or great selection. because hey not everyone wants to spend 1300$ on a bubble king protein skimmer and just wants a cheaper one. These people are running a business and I think there are a few out there who do a good job and I mean it would be stupid to go into a store and be like how could you mark things up. that would be like your boss saying to you hey um I know I pay you 40$ an hour but I mean I think you could live of 12$ an hour that’s fair right?

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by pastout

well people who complain about that are just someone who is going to bitch about everything. Honestly if that’s all your trying to use as your argument



like come on do you actually expect them to check every store in every province to try and make sure they have the lowest price. I mean your taking a fish store not Wal-Mart.

I mean all is your doing in dissecting a statement. All a business can do is be competitively priced for the market. and carry a good selection of equipment or great selection. because hey not everyone wants to spend 1300$ on a bubble king protein skimmer and just wants a cheaper one. These people are running a business and I think there are a few out there who do a good job and I mean it would be stupid to go into a store and be like how could you mark things up. that would be like your boss saying to you hey um I know I pay you 40$ an hour but I mean I think you could live of 12$ an hour that’s fair right?

Exactly my points, my argument is for the LFS not against them. People do just like to complain about everything and stores do their best to compete but you simply can't be the best at everything, no small chain store can compete with Walmart prices or selection. The same comparison could be made in regards to certain fish stores, retail is retail.