Wiring advice/help needed (voltage in tank)

[gregzz4]

I'm just going to throw this out there, and it's my opinion only, but I'll stand by it ....

My tank has no voltage in it at all (OK 0.07)
O volts with no probes tells me my equipment is good

Being told someone has 60volts and is OK with it is wrong

No offence to whoever has this situation, but that's just messed up and will never be me

[Wildechild_01]

Originally Posted by gregzz4

I'm just going to throw this out there, and it's my opinion only, but I'll stand by it ....

My tank has no voltage in it at all (OK 0.07)
O volts with no probes tells me my equipment is good

Being told someone has 60volts and is OK with it is wrong

No offence to whoever has this situation, but that's just messed up and will never be me

Haha no offence taken, I appreciate your position for sure.

Part of the purpose behind my posts is that now that I am observing the phenomenon I am intrigued by it and looking into what is happening and how/why. Knowing that you can induce a voltage into the water with a pump I can say that you can measure a voltage without your equipment being faulty. Just applying my knowledge to the situation, actually planning to replace some items, and try some other maintenance to see how it affect the situation. Really this has turned into a bit of an experimentation situation for me and I may be nerding out to it a little excessively since it combines my hobby and career

I guess the point I am making is that this is not a unique situation and that there are reasons for it and ways to deal with it that do not involve spending potentially hundreds of dollars only to end up in the same situation.

With older motors now fighting against some extra resistance as gunk builds up in the motor, or even just regular old wearing out.. these pumps pretty much run 24/7 for years, they will in theory now start to pull more power and potentially induce even more voltage into the tank and so replacing them will then theoretically reduce the voltages in your tank. I am running a 3 yr old Reef Octopus Skimmer and my return pump is also around the 3 yr mark. I also noted that all of the submerged pumps in my tank do not have grounded cords, they are all 2 prong not 3. This is allowed because the casings on the pumps and the majority of the components are plastic. Some higher end pumps would contain more metallic parts and will probably use the 3 prong cords. In that situation the metal parts of the pump exposed to the water will now be acting in place of the ground probes that we add to the tanks, so you are still inducing a voltage into the water your equipment is simply providing that ground path to dissipate it. Without actually seeing a setup I can not say for certain this is happening but it is definitely a real possibility when looking at the electrical theory.

For my own curiosity gregzz do you have grounded, 3 prong plug, equipment in your tank?

Aaaannny way.... Replacing old equipment with new may help, and making sure items with a ground are properly connected to a ground especially if the equipment is submerged. Don't panic and replace everything without thinking about it, but YES it is a good idea to aim for a low of a voltage reading and if replacing equipment helps then that is a good idea. I'm going to continue playing with my equipment and tank as time allows and as I learn more I will update my thoughts and oppinions, unless of course you don't want me to haha.

[GoFish]

So im getting the feeling that the grounding probe does absolutely nothing to protect the fish corals and other tank inhabitants from harm, it only prevents me from getting zapped (to a certain extent). With the grounding probe present in the tank if I stood in a puddle with bare feet on a metal drain cover that was earth grounded it would make sense that I could possibly absorb enough current to get harmed (if there was actual current in the tank). The probe seems more like a comfort thing. I swear that with a grounding probe in the tank and voltage showing 4.0 volts from my first post I still felt a tingle in a cut on a finger, but not uncomfortable. For a fish to actually feel the current or voltage wouldn't it have to jump out of the water and give a ground probe a high five with its tail in the water?! I haven't honestly seen any difference in any livestock in the tank with the probe or without. It's like they are in their own little world no matter what. If I drop a toaster in the water while in the bath tub, before the breaker trips I'm most likely dead, period. However if I'm swimming In the ocean or in a really big swimming pool not touching the beach or the edge of the pool and someone threw a toaster in the water would I even feel it?

I'll talk to J+L where I bought the skimmer and see if this could be a warranty issue, it continuously gives high voltage readings (20ish volts)

Wildechild, it's interesting you get nearly the same reading I do, I wonder how many people on the forum would get voltage readings.
The tank is only 20 gallons BtW

Let there be a poll!

And back to something I previously mentioned. Is there any chance that my recent T5 light fixture issues caused my other equipment to do the same, leak voltage? If so maybe I should replace ALL my equipment at the same time, other wise I risk having the same thing snowball again...

[GoFish]

Just had a read through this, Voltage in the aquarium it was at the bottom of the page that Wildechild posted.
Something I found very interesting (as my head almost exploded from technicalities) was the part about bizarre powerhead measurements half way down the page. The plastic housing of his powerhead induces voltage, this has nothing to from what I can tell that there's anything physically or visually wrong with pump or wiring (well maybe internally) but nothing noted. It appears to be the same phenomenon that has been taking place with all my equipment. Sure, I can check the new'ish skimmer for signs of issues, but highly doubt I will find anything visibly wrong, therefore the pump of the skimmer is now leaking voltage by way of "some cause".

Find the answer and I'll call you genius! Or a good Googler

[Wildechild_01]

Originally Posted by Vancity

So im getting the feeling that the grounding probe does absolutely nothing to protect the fish corals and other tank inhabitants from harm, it only prevents me from getting zapped (to a certain extent).

By George I think he's got it. Based on my personal results so far the article in the next quote i say put the ground probe in... extra safe for you, minimal extra risk to tank inhabitants.

Originally Posted by Vancity

Just had a read through this, Voltage in the aquarium it was at the bottom of the page that Wildechild posted.
Something I found very interesting (as my head almost exploded from technicalities) was the part about bizarre powerhead measurements half way down the page. The plastic housing of his powerhead induces voltage, this has nothing to from what I can tell that there's anything physically or visually wrong with pump or wiring (well maybe internally) but nothing noted. It appears to be the same phenomenon that has been taking place with all my equipment. Sure, I can check the new'ish skimmer for signs of issues, but highly doubt I will find anything visibly wrong, therefore the pump of the skimmer is now leaking voltage by way of "some cause".

Find the answer and I'll call you genius! Or a good Googler

Yeah that is a bit of a brain melter of an article, but good.

The question with the power heads is a result of magnetic induction...

When the powerhead impeller spins or the impeller in your skimmer or return pump spins it is caused by magnetic fields. The electricity flows into the device which causes magnetic fields to grow and shrink along with the AC power. To keep it simple 120v AV power cycles from 120v down to -120v and back 60 times per second. This rise and fall in the electricity flowing is what causes the magnetic fields to grow and shrink. These magnetic fields are what make the impeller (spinning part) of the pump spin. These magnetic fields often travel farther that the equipment regardless of what the equipment is made of.

When we generate electricity we do it the other way around... we physically spin magnets close to coils of wire and the interaction of the magnetic fields moving across the wire cause electricity to be generated.

This happens anytime a magnetic field crosses something capable of conducting electricity. Including the salt water in your tank.

The motors in your tank are not leaking electricity. The magnetic fields moving through the water are creating it. With multiple pumps and magnetic fields a lot of power can potentially be created.

With no ground probe there is zero risk to the fish... yes we are generating a voltage but there is nowhere for it to go so no power actually flow anywhere (current) so nothing gets shocked. The danger is that now we can build up some more voltage or Potential for power to flow... my tank was at 80V when i got home.. it changes based on the speed of my powerheads. When you touch the water now the electricity stored in the tank has somewhere to go by going through you. You get shocked.

Electricity is lazy and will always take the easiest way out to ground. So if you properly install the ground probe that will ALWAYS be the easiest way for it to go and most of it will go that way... like water washing away dirt before wearing away rocks.

The downside to the probe is now that electricity being CREATED in your tank has somewhere to go so there will always be some electricity flowing through the tank. Since it is flowing electricity that can harm things electrical theory tells us this could harm your fish, the results in the article, and my own results agree, show such small ammounts of power flow that the risk to the inhabitants is actually quite minimal.

The article also points out that even with the ground probe in place, IF a cord became damaged dangerous amounts of available power will be present in the tank. This is the reason for using a GFCI. If the power leak was big enough it could eventually trip a breaker but that would be a pretty serious short and probably kill your tank. The GFCI will trip as soon as it sees some of the power it sends out not come back, at amounts small enough that no one gets hurt. The down side to the GFCI is that sometimes for no good reason pumps and motors will make them trip and now your tank has turned off. So no perfect solution.

Okay that last paragraph got slightly off topic, but still related topic???? Anyway great article you linked even if tough to get through. Google Electromagnetic Induction if my explanation on that didn't make sense, there are even some okay you tube vids about it.

POI - My Skimmer and Return pump seem to both generate around the 20V mark in my tank. My lights negligible (LED with drivers not in the housing) and my MP40's (no electrical components physically in the water) start to have an effect around 50% speed which makes sense as amount of interaction between water and magnetic fields increases as they spin faster.

[gregzz4]

Originally Posted by Wildechild_01

For my own curiosity gregzz do you have grounded, 3 prong plug, equipment in your tank?

I have both 2 and 3 prong equipment in the sump

Originally Posted by Wheelman76

This doesn't make sense to me

It's an auto-ranging meter, and reads 119~VAC in the outlets
Like I said, 0.07

[Wildechild_01]

Originally Posted by gregzz4

I have both 2 and 3 prong equipment in the sump


It's an auto-ranging meter, and reads 119~VAC in the outlets
Like I said, 0.07

I can't say 100% but my guess is that something else in your sump is acting as a ground for the tank, and that's awesome.

[mike31154]

Get a new heater & skimmer pump. Clearly these 2 components have issues.

I read some voltage when making measurements in my tank (been a while, but IIRC, less than 10). 60+ volts is scary & unsafe. I don't use a ground probe. The wiki article sums it up pretty well. Use GFCI or multiple GFCI, keep electrical cords out of the water. Use as much low voltage DC equipment as possible, don't fully submerge any heater, no matter what the manufacturer claims.

[DSlater]

Originally Posted by Wildechild_01

I can't say 100% but my guess is that something else in your sump is acting as a ground for the tank, and that's awesome.

Just my observation here... But when I have had to troubleshoot electrical issues in the past I have found that induced voltage seldom gives much of a shock.
Like the red wire in a three conductor cable if it's isolated on each end will show a voltage on my volt tick because of the induced voltage. When I grab it with my bare fingers there is no shock because there is no actual power behind it.

Is the original poster able to tell us if the shock he receives is continuous or a one time hit? Might tell us something... A one time poke might lean more to induced, continuous would be voltage leak. I get a good continuous shock from the aluminum siding of my trailer when I plug it in with a 2 prong cord.

Other issues could be bad bond or neutral connections in the house or power bar wiring... really to many variables to troubleshoot over the internet. It did make me check my tank and I'm down to .1 or .2 volts with powerhead, skimmer pump, 2 submerged heaters, and a DC return pump.

[GoFish]

Originally Posted by DSlater

Is the original poster able to tell us if the shock he receives is continuous or a one time hit?

Its a continuous shock. The heater is fully submerged so maybe I'll raise the dial above the waterline, the skimmer is gonna have to stay where it is for a bit. Im not super worried about this anymore, i don't really like the tank anyway

I'll be taking the fish out tonight and putting them in the other tank. hopefully the clowns can find a powerhead or some random coral to host.

Then off to Mexico for 5 days I'll check in while away
Thanks again for the replies