Vacuuming a sand bed or not That is my question

[Kraken]

I will also be removing my sand bed in about a day or two in my display tank. Been getting lots of red slime and I cannot attribute it to being caused by anything else (played with lighting, and havent fed my tank in 2 weeks). Will also post a pic of what my sandbed looks like in a pail after I take it out. Probably looks worst than yours A.

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by Kraken

Been getting lots of red slime and I cannot attribute it to being caused by anything else (played with lighting, and havent fed my tank in 2 weeks).

Sorry to use your circumstance as an example, and in no way am I directing anything to you, but your post is in no way out of the norm. Which makes me wonder why more people are not asking questions as to why? Sure allot of good questions are asked all the time but allot are not. And sometimes there is some bad answers provided wether intended or not. Why do so many of us have to deal with these sudden outbreaks or ongoing issues we struggle to control as a result of nutrient levels and or nutrient imbalances within our systems? Is that sand bed a major contributing factor? Is lack of proper maintenance of such fuelling our nutrient levels, fuelling our phosphate levels? Is cleaning that sand important? Is it better to leave it alone? Should we be concerned about such terms as biodiversity, or ecosystems? Should we be promoting more? Less? Which forms of life should we try and nurture and which should we try and eradicate? Which are considered irrelevant? Are we really just stuck with excessive amounts of phosphates within our systems? Where do they even come from? Do we only add them from external sources? Can our system create them internally? Do we have a phosphate problem? Why are they not detectable when we test and what does that mean? Why are they detectable and what does that mean? Do our tests even provide us with clear answers? Are there phosphates our test kits can not even measure? If so are they important? Is employing such tactics as macro algaes, gfo's, sponges, filters, carbons, and the like, just something we are all going to be forced to employ to deal with an excess of these nutrients? As such are these nutrients in excess inevitable and unavoidable and we must find means to maintain these excesses? Or can a healthy and thriving system free of any nuisances and excess nutrients be achieved without the need of these? Should we be excited when we have created the environment where macro algae thrives and we regularly have to harvest for export? Certainly for those wanting a nutrient rich environment for whatever reason, but for the typical reefer, should we be asking instead if we want to create an environment in the first place where we actually can steadily grow macro algae and the like? Should we have to choose the livestock we can keep or need to keep based upon what stock controls what nuisance? Are any practices we employ or lack there of contributing to such issues? How we feed? Do we over stock? Do we under-maintain critical aspects of our systems such as our sand beds? Over maintain? What about our live rock, are we creating an environment for it to function at its peak efficiency? Does it even matter if it does? What about the choices in the water we use?What about equipment choices? And which are important and which are not? Does any equipment we use aid in the increase of nutrients? What about our cuc? Do we have enough, do we need more? What role do they even play and how can we use them to our benefit? Are they even necessary? Do we put to much faith in them? Not enough?
What active roll are we playing ourselves by the choices we make and actions we take or do not take to determine our level of nutrients? And can we even be in control? Or are we at the mercy of the nutrients within our system and we must just find ways to cope?

I'm not gonna pretend to answer any of those with my opinions. And I'm not a sand hater and I am not opposed to nutrient control via anyway that works for an individual. And I am not trying to create any divisions between the ways people choose to run there system, as I firmly believe there is no right or wrong way of getting there. So my intention is not to offend anyone. But I also feel that excess nutrients and nuisances can also easily be avoided and kept in check under most circumstances, if we weren't so confused about some of the most basic and simple aspects of basic husbandry that can and do indeed play a massive role in the health of our system. Like cleaning a sand bed. Instead we advise a new user who are experiencing nutrient issues to go and grow macro algae and buy buckets of gfo or this chemical works wonders for this unwanted guest, then give them the thumbs up to add more fish, and feed there corals some more. When more then likely they could have avoided the need to do so from the start if they wernt so damn confused about seemingly simple and basic fundamentals and practices. Either way, I just want those who may have similar questions to those posted above or any questions for that matter to start looking for real answers. And to not just get an answer. But to find out why that is the answer.

[Kraken]

Originally Posted by Masonjames

Sorry to use your circumstance as an example, and in no way am I directing anything to you, but your post is in no way out of the norm. Which makes me wonder why more people are not asking questions as to why? Sure allot of good questions are asked all the time but allot are not. And sometimes there is some bad answers provided wether intended or not. Why do so many of us have to deal with these sudden outbreaks or ongoing issues we struggle to control as a result of nutrient levels and or nutrient imbalances within our systems? Is that sand bed a major contributing factor? Is lack of proper maintenance of such fuelling our nutrient levels, fuelling our phosphate levels? Is cleaning that sand important? Is it better to leave it alone? Should we be concerned about such terms as biodiversity, or ecosystems? Should we be promoting more? Less? Which forms of life should we try and nurture and which should we try and eradicate? Which are considered irrelevant? Are we really just stuck with excessive amounts of phosphates within our systems? Where do they even come from? Do we only add them from external sources? Can our system create them internally? Do we have a phosphate problem? Why are they not detectable when we test and what does that mean? Why are they detectable and what does that mean? Do our tests even provide us with clear answers? Are there phosphates our test kits can not even measure? If so are they important? Is employing such tactics as macro algaes, gfo's, sponges, filters, carbons, and the like, just something we are all going to be forced to employ to deal with an excess of these nutrients? As such are these nutrients in excess inevitable and unavoidable and we must find means to maintain these excesses? Or can a healthy and thriving system free of any nuisances and excess nutrients be achieved without the need of these? Should we be excited when we have created the environment where macro algae thrives and we regularly have to harvest for export? Certainly for those wanting a nutrient rich environment for whatever reason, but for the typical reefer, should we be asking instead if we want to create an environment in the first place where we actually can steadily grow macro algae and the like? Should we have to choose the livestock we can keep or need to keep based upon what stock controls what nuisance? Are any practices we employ or lack there of contributing to such issues? How we feed? Do we over stock? Do we under-maintain critical aspects of our systems such as our sand beds? Over maintain? What about our live rock, are we creating an environment for it to function at its peak efficiency? Does it even matter if it does? What about the choices in the water we use?What about equipment choices? And which are important and which are not? Does any equipment we use aid in the increase of nutrients? What about our cuc? Do we have enough, do we need more? What role do they even play and how can we use them to our benefit? Are they even necessary? Do we put to much faith in them? Not enough?
What active roll are we playing ourselves by the choices we make and actions we take or do not take to determine our level of nutrients? And can we even be in control? Or are we at the mercy of the nutrients within our system and we must just find ways to cope?

I'm not gonna pretend to answer any of those with my opinions. And I'm not a sand hater and I am not opposed to nutrient control via anyway that works for an individual. And I am not trying to create any divisions between the ways people choose to run there system, as I firmly believe there is no right or wrong way of getting there. So my intention is not to offend anyone. But I also feel that excess nutrients and nuisances can also easily be avoided and kept in check under most circumstances, if we weren't so confused about some of the most basic and simple aspects of basic husbandry that can and do indeed play a massive role in the health of our system. Like cleaning a sand bed. Instead we advise a new user who are experiencing nutrient issues to go and grow macro algae and buy buckets of gfo or this chemical works wonders for this unwanted guest, then give them the thumbs up to add more fish, and feed there corals some more. When more then likely they could have avoided the need to do so from the start if they wernt so damn confused about seemingly simple and basic fundamentals and practices. Either way, I just want those who may have similar questions to those posted above or any questions for that matter to start looking for real answers. And to not just get an answer. But to find out why that is the answer.

Like all things in the reef, I am not 100% sure that it is the sandbed thats causing the red slime, however it is the best guess I got. Removing it will allow me to rule it out, however I have many customers who have had red slime and removing the sand bed typically rectifies their problem. Personally, I also believe it is just a ticking time bomb as you I can see the crap it carries. I siphoned out maybe 2 cups full of sand and the water that came with it looks pretty murky. As to the contents of the murky water, I do not know as testing it will likely result in ambiguity considering the countless particulates that may be in there.

Another possibility of the red slime may be my dry rock but not as likely so, the only logical thing to do is to remove what is most likely the cause of an issue. I am pretty picky as to what I add in my tank, and other than salt, fish, coral, frag plugs, food, dust, gfo, carbon and cheato, there isnt anything else that im adding into the tank that I am not aware of. I check the tds meter on my RO system as well frequently and it reads 0. Yes. I also double check it with a handheld one as well.

Nobody has the perfect formula in maintaining a flourishing reef which is partly what makes this hobby so appealing. In order to advance in this hobby, we have to take a scientific approach (and by all means im using this word VERY loosely). By this, I mean to try your best and account for all variables and to not leave anything to chance. I have never added any live rock (other than bits and pieces stuck on corals that I later remove) so I know, relatively, what is in my tank. Now im not saying I can account for everything in my tank as that would be impossible considering how diverse a reef aquarium is. So the best tool is to just to try and remove one part of the system at a time until something clicks and solves your problem.

Removing the sandbed may also only temporarily solve my issue, but again, its all just trial and error.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Kraken

Removing the sandbed may also only temporarily solve my issue, but again, its all just trial and error.

I suspect it will. As I mentioned in one of my posts, the algae on my front glass required cleaning at least daily, often more. After removal of the sand yesterday, so, 30 hours ago, I have 0 algae on my glass. This is how my tank used to run in the first 2 years. I think the sand is a sink for garbage and one day it starts giving back. For a time reference, this portion of sand I removed was replaced about 2 years ago.
My new opinion is yes, it's a ticking bomb.

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by Kraken

Like all things in the reef, I am not 100% sure that it is the sandbed thats causing the red slime, however it is the best guess I got. Removing it will allow me to rule it out, however I have many customers who have had red slime and removing the sand bed typically rectifies their problem. Personally, I also believe it is just a ticking time bomb as you I can see the crap it carries. I siphoned out maybe 2 cups full of sand and the water that came with it looks pretty murky. As to the contents of the murky water, I do not know as testing it will likely result in ambiguity considering the countless particulates that may be in there.

Another possibility of the red slime may be my dry rock but not as likely so, the only logical thing to do is to remove what is most likely the cause of an issue. I am pretty picky as to what I add in my tank, and other than salt, fish, coral, frag plugs, food, dust, gfo, carbon and cheato, there isnt anything else that im adding into the tank that I am not aware of. I check the tds meter on my RO system as well frequently and it reads 0. Yes. I also double check it with a handheld one as well.

Nobody has the perfect formula in maintaining a flourishing reef which is partly what makes this hobby so appealing. In order to advance in this hobby, we have to take a scientific approach (and by all means im using this word VERY loosely). By this, I mean to try your best and account for all variables and to not leave anything to chance. I have never added any live rock (other than bits and pieces stuck on corals that I later remove) so I know, relatively, what is in my tank. Now im not saying I can account for everything in my tank as that would be impossible considering how diverse a reef aquarium is. So the best tool is to just to try and remove one part of the system at a time until something clicks and solves your problem.

Removing the sandbed may also only temporarily solve my issue, but again, its all just trial and error.

Originally Posted by Kraken

Like all things in the reef, I am not 100% sure that it is the sandbed thats causing the red slime, however it is the best guess I got. Removing it will allow me to rule it out, however I have many customers who have had red slime and removing the sand bed typically rectifies their problem. Personally, I also believe it is just a ticking time bomb as you I can see the crap it carries. I siphoned out maybe 2 cups full of sand and the water that came with it looks pretty murky. As to the contents of the murky water, I do not know as testing it will likely result in ambiguity considering the countless particulates that may be in there.

Another possibility of the red slime may be my dry rock but not as likely so, the only logical thing to do is to remove what is most likely the cause of an issue. I am pretty picky as to what I add in my tank, and other than salt, fish, coral, frag plugs, food, dust, gfo, carbon and cheato, there isnt anything else that im adding into the tank that I am not aware of. I check the tds meter on my RO system as well frequently and it reads 0. Yes. I also double check it with a handheld one as well.

Nobody has the perfect formula in maintaining a flourishing reef which is partly what makes this hobby so appealing. In order to advance in this hobby, we have to take a scientific approach (and by all means im using this word VERY loosely). By this, I mean to try your best and account for all variables and to not leave anything to chance. I have never added any live rock (other than bits and pieces stuck on corals that I later remove) so I know, relatively, what is in my tank. Now im not saying I can account for everything in my tank as that would be impossible considering how diverse a reef aquarium is. So the best tool is to just to try and remove one part of the system at a time until something clicks and solves your problem.

Removing the sandbed may also only temporarily solve my issue, but again, its all just trial and error.

Again, I'm sorry quoted your situation. I assure you my post was not directed at you. It was right there so I used it. But I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. My post was not to offend anyone or tell anyone there doing something wrong. My intent was to get people thinking. I myself tried to do not allot more then just ask a bunch of questions. There are many people in this hobby who don't have the experience as you have or this person has and there are always new people coming into the hobby. And I am sure we all can agree that this hobby has just as much bad information available as there is good information available. And I sure don't have all the answers. And I'm sure either do you or the next guy. So my intent of the post was to make anyone who actually has some questions or issues they are struggling with to actually find some real answers. And why those answers are the way the are. There is so much great data and information available to those who invest the time to look, but I guarantee not everyone is going to even know what questions to ask. And I'm sure there are allot who are just asking the wrong questions all together and getting the wrong advice or answers. And I agree that there is no perfect formula but as you mentioned regarding a scientific approach there are basic facts and principles that will apply to everyone. There is so much information available to us if in fact we know what to look for and question as to why those things are the way they are.

In reference to your post now, I have no idea if your sand bed is the culprit or not either and I agree trying to rule that out first seems like a good place to start. But the fact remains the same. You do indeed currently have a nutrient issue or are experiencing a nutrient imbalance. If in fact you can grow and harvest your cheato for export on a regular basis then that alone is fact you have an excess of available phosphates. Which of coarse may not be an issue since the means of export are in place. But the red slime is clearly an indicator that there is something there for it to be taking advantage of. And I agree,
Probably the sand bed. But the dry rock could also be the culprit as you pointed out. That dry rock may indeed be housing bound inorganic phosphates. Hard to say. Was the rock a recent addition before the red slime? Maybe you can try and trouble shoot both and do a somewhat crude test for potential phosphate problems in either. If either is housing some serious inorganic phosphates you can ground up to fine powder a sample of each and add the sample to rodi and test for phosphates ( test each separately lol) when you grind it up you break down any inorganic phosphates into orthophosphates which if present to any significant amount your test kit should pick it??

[jorjef]

You know Bradley!! You started this......

[gregzz4]

Wholly Mackerel
This thread just gets better and better

I'm gonna stick my neck out here and put in my 10 cents

I haven't touched my sandbed for over 6 months and don't plan to do so anytime soon

If your sand gets mucked up, siphon some of it out and be done with it, but keep your removal to the 1/8" level
If it's clean, leave it alone
Why remove all the critters ?

Don't siphon into dsb's past the 1/4" level and risk exposing hydrogen sulphide
Maybe my measurements are a bit off, so do your own research

I'd add more, but I'll bite my tongue

[Aquattro]

The only critters I found were 6 nassarius snails. I think maybe there are fewer critters than we believe in there