Vacuuming a sand bed or not That is my question

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by Basile

The difference though is that they don't disturb the whole tank all at once my friend that not comparable. The cleaning lady with her gigantic vacuuming and spatula destroy the whole ecosystem in one shot. How do you think the filtration is affected.

Originally Posted by Basile

The difference though is that they don't disturb the whole tank all at once my friend that not comparable. The cleaning lady with her gigantic vacuuming and spatula destroy the whole ecosystem in one shot. How do you think the filtration is affected.

Guess I fall under the category of cleaning lady with my giant vacuum and spatula destroying the entire ecosystem and biological diversity of my tank while making my tanks filtration suffer.

What do you think is in your sand bed that you don't already have in your live rock? Why is actively removing debris from a closed system destroying an ecosystem and why should my filtration be negatively affected from doing so? Is my tank then less capable of processing and filtering then yours is? Is my cleaning lady approach setting my tank up for failure and yours has a far greater chance for success because you keep this "vital and unique" ecosystem intact?

How is the filtration effected? Why should I not clean my sand on a regular bases? And why should I only do so when my tank is experiencing problems as you suggested? Why is doing it then a good idea and not the rest of the time? And what problems actually constitute an appropriate time to do and why does that problem lead you to believe you in fact should be cleaning your sand bed?

So should I get on board with you and put this to rest because us crazy sand cleaning people need to know the facts and that the notion of actively remove debris from our systems via maintaining the sand bed is just silly and if doing so where are actually just tyrants of our ecosystem and creating shortcomings for our tanks filtering and processing capabilities?

I don't care if you don't want to flush that toilet you call a sand bed by actually maintaining it but i don't think its appropriate to label those of us out there who do as "this group", "these clean freaks" and try to imply we are doing something wrong and you need to create some thread to out it all to rest so we finally get it! I would hate for a new person in the hobby to read your post and come to the conclusion they should not be cleaning and maintaing there sand

[Basile]

Originally Posted by Masonjames

Guess I fall under the category of cleaning lady with my giant vacuum and spatula destroying the entire ecosystem and biological diversity of my tank while making my tanks filtration suffer.

What do you think is in your sand bed that you don't already have in your live rock? Why is actively removing debris from a closed system destroying an ecosystem and why should my filtration be negatively affected from doing so? Is my tank then less capable of processing and filtering then yours is? Is my cleaning lady approach setting my tank up for failure and yours has a far greater chance for success because you keep this "vital and unique" ecosystem intact?

How is the filtration effected? Why should I not clean my sand on a regular bases? And why should I only do so when my tank is experiencing problems as you suggested? Why is doing it then a good idea and not the rest of the time? And what problems actually constitute an appropriate time to do and why does that problem lead you to believe you in fact should be cleaning your sand bed?

So should I get on board with you and put this to rest because us crazy sand cleaning people need to know the facts and that the notion of actively remove debris from our systems via maintaining the sand bed is just silly and if doing so where are actually just tyrants of our ecosystem and creating shortcomings for our tanks filtering and processing capabilities?

I don't care if you don't want to flush that toilet you call a sand bed by actually maintaining it but i don't think its appropriate to label those of us out there who do as "this group", "these clean freaks" and try to imply we are doing something wrong and you need to create some thread to out it all to rest so we finally get it! I would hate for a new person in the hobby to read your post and come to the conclusion they should not be cleaning and maintaing there sand

So all those who don't do what YOU preach and have great tanks no nitrate issues for years , how do you explain that. i used the clean freaks because we're bombarded by you people all the time about it. In my club 2 of you came and started bullying the rest into doing thats, as if it was a crusade, your aggressive deffence versus when i say its a question of style and a choice , you've gone Off the chart , like the same who came into are quiet club and started this issue. Now because you and your crusades it has split everybody for no reason than self gratification i guess. Thats why i've posted in every site i could think of and see the result, talked to all the LFS i could find and see. It is a personal choice no doubt about it a style, because it seems to be split in the middle. So again those who dont do it and have no issue how do account for that?

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by Basile

So all those who don't do what YOU preach and have great tanks no nitrate issues for years , how do you explain that. i used the clean freaks because we're bombarded by you people all the time about it. In my club 2 of you came and started bullying the rest into doing thats, as if it was a crusade, your aggressive deffence versus when i say its a question of style and a choice , you've gone Off the chart , like the same who came into are quiet club and started this issue. Now because you and your crusades it has split everybody for no reason than self gratification i guess. Thats why i've posted in every site i could think of and see the result, talked to all the LFS i could find and see. It is a personal choice no doubt about it a style, because it seems to be split in the middle. So again those who dont do it and have no issue how do account for that?

I am not trying to hash it out with you. You created a thread stating you wanted to put to rest the idea that maintaining your sand bed is for the clean freaks and not at all necessary. And I personally feel that the posts you made earlier were very misguided for those who are actually seeking some real answers. Most specifically those who are new to the hobby.

You are correct that there are many people who have had great success with never touching there sand bed and never worrying about it. Which seems to be your situation. And in no way am I trying to say that your destined for failure if you do not. A sand bed can indeed be just as efficient at processing nutrients as your live rock. But that is only until that sand bed begins to clog up and fill up with debris, bacterial flock, tugor etc. Just look at the photo posted from the person who just cleaned there bed after 3 years. And eventually it is going to fill up wether it be in months or years depending on so many factors. Your army of cuc can process all they wish but the end result of there processing is just more debris. Some how all that debris needs to be removed no? It's not a cycle that can indefinitely go on, eventually there will be more to process then can be processed in a closed system. Eventually there will be a breaking point. And that doesn't necessarily mean your tank will crash and game over, but all the sudden we need to start looking into additional means to cope with what our tank now struggles to process on its own and you have helped to create a very delicate balancing act of nutrients. That can in fact crash your system, or give you so many headaches trying to fix or remedy a person could end up wanting to quit. So let me ask you, do you incorporate the use of macro algae? How well do you feel it grows in your system? Do you feel its use is necessary to keep your nutrients where you want them? How about gfos? Do you use? Need to use to keep levels in check? How about nuisance algae? Ever have any problems with that?

So I am sorry, I would rather people new to the hobby would be able to find deeper information to help them determine how they wish to run there system rather then a lets take a vote so we can tell all those people who clean there sand it stupid and don't bother. Go out and buy an army of cuc and let nature do what nature does. Completely misguided information IMO. It's no surprise the forums are filled with posts from new users crying for help because they can't get there algae out breaks under control or there nutrient levels are off the charts. Obviously a sand bed is not the only issue or culprit but I don't think advising those against maintaining aspects of there system that should indeed be maintained is a great idea. And I'm am sorry if I misinterpreted your intention of the post if I am.

Sand can be a great addition to a system and may even be a requirement based on the livestock you keep. And there are many who would refuse not to have sand. But if used, it needs to be maintained. Just as everything else we use. If not maintained it will inevitably break down.

Fwiw. I don't currently have sand. A dish for my wrasses to sleep is all. Even that gets vacuumed. But I personally did not want the additional work load of maintaining a sand bed the way I feel I would need to maintain it and or any issues that could result from keeping one. I have no cuc. No nutrient issues. No macro no gfos. No nuisance algae. I am in control of my nutrient levels via my maintenance, and my feeding the system and my overall bio load. My system does not suffer because I am missing some integral ecosystem or lack of biodiversity. Many people run there systems differently and we all can have great success using many different means to do so. So there is no right or wrong way or your way or my way. But there are some fundamentals that I think should be employed by all, or at the very least advice given especially to new users that properly maintaining the system wether it be a sand bed, or skimmer, is the most valuable tool you yourself can provide to the system.

But just IMO : )

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Masonjames

But just IMO : )

Pretty well thought out opinion. After the sludge removal today, and the second half next month, I will be vacuuming my sand bed.

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Pretty well thought out opinion. After the sludge removal today, and the second half next month, I will be vacuuming my sand bed.

I am going to save that picture you posted so I can show my wife and say see this is why we cannot have sand! Lol

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Masonjames

I am going to save that picture you posted so I can show my wife and say see this is why we cannot have sand! Lol

Too bad you're not local, you could have the barrel full to show her!

[Masonjames]

I would not want the responsibility of disposing of that afterwards. What if I spilled some on myself. Gross! Pics will do, but thanks for the offer! Lol