TM balling webinar synopsis

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

Quick Q: you have to dose 125ml of A and 125ml of B at the same time or multiple of that right depending on the depletion rate? Or can the amount of ml of each solution be changed? I can understand you have to dose the same amount of B and C (x ml) but what about A and B?

A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.

There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all

office@tropicmarin-usa.com

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

Hows the dosing done Michael? Because to have one sodium ion for every chloride ion, there has to be a ratio of 110.98g of CaCl for every 84.007g of CaHCO (molar masses). Does that satisfy the aprox 10ppm of calcium consumption every 2dkh of alk drop? Because if that amount of grams are not maintained, there will either more be more sodium ions or more chloride ions with an end result of being imbalance.

And here is your answer in probably more detail than you could ever wish for Hans-Werner does not hold back

• Sodium chloride has a molar weight of 58.44 g/mol.
• In 2 l of R/O water a max. of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate can be dissolved. After addition of 2 mol sodium bicarbonate and 1 mol calcium chloride 2 mol sodium chloride remain in the aquarium. 2 mol sodium chloride can be balanced with exactly 50 g of sodium chloride free sea salt.
• Formula:
 CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 2 NaHCO3 
CaCO3 + 2 NaCl + CO2 + 3 H2O
• Insert weights:
 147 g CaCl2 x 2 H2O + 168 g NaHCO3  100 g CaCO3 + 117 g NaCl + 44 g CO2 + 54 g H2O
 117 g NaCl + 50 g NaCl free sea salt  167 g complete sea salt



• Adjust tank water to 7° KH and 420 ppm calcium.
• Check alkalinity after two days. Calculate how much alkalinity solution is needed. Add same volume of all three solutions.
• Continue with daily additions of half the volume.
• Adjust added volumes to keep 7° KH alkalinity.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

For anyone that fancies the gauntlet of making their own I thought I would share this

Of course you dont need the NCL as that's the part you are trying to balance

So are you suggesting part C contains all of the above?!? And if so then that would be exceedingly difficult to do unless mixing it up in extremely large batches as some of those elements really are "trace" elements. Additionally, many are not necessary for the health of our reef inhabitants. So it's not like that chart is a compilation of what is in part c; or any synthetic salt for that matter.

I understand completely what you are saying about balanced dosing and imbalances that may occur depending on how elements are being consumed and then dosed. The point I am trying to make is that, while the TM products may very well be good and an easy solution , I think it's fair to say that the same thing could be accomplished with other dosing regimens and other trace element solutions that contain the elements that are consumed and used by corals etc.

I just think it's a bit of marketing speak to suggest that only Tropic Marin provides a balanced dosing solution and by doing it other ways you are creating or feeding an imbalance. That may be true if someone is only dosing two part or two part plus Mg. But I suspect most dose other trace element complexes as well from numerous other brands and we don't see reef tanks using other products crashing left right and center or going wildly out of balance all over the place.

Sure, the TM products may very well be a good and easy solution but other options exist to do essentially the same thing and they don't involve mixing up your own trace element complexes one element at a time etc.

Just to reiterate, I'm not knocking the TM solution as I'm sure it works as advertised. Just trying to have a balanced view as to what it's accomplishing and how it might compare to other options.

[Ron99]

And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by Ron99

And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.

Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.

Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.

I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.

Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.

I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.

Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.

Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.

Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?

I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.

I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.

This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.

That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart.

[reeferfulton]

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.

Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.

Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?

I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.

I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.

This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.

That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart.

UG Ron, read the post, I said this is what is found in NSW not what is found in Part C of course some elements are not there, the ones that either cant be replicated in any sea salt mixture. common sense, please if we are going to have any debate.

As I said before Ron go for it brother fill ya boots show us your DIY system that can do this, when you have produced a part C with everything in it that NSW has minus the NACL and show us the recipe, I think this is a mute point.

If your point is other options may work as well, then yes providing they match what is in part C then you are 100% right.

Nobody has said TM has the exclusive on this, its about doing it right, 3 part is not doing it right where the 3rd part is just MG, thats the whole purpose of this thread.