cyano battle lol

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Carbon dosing has it's risks, benefits, proponents, and adamant detractors. There's hundreds of threads on all the forums about it. The risk, is that cyanobacteria assemblages also contain clades of heterotrophic bacteria which are just as good (if not better because of their commensal associations) at consuming excess organic carbon, so if cyano is present and nitrate is high, it's possible to cause a cyano explosion by starting an organic carbon dosing regiment. Paradoxically, it's exactly the effect the method is attempting produce (cyano is a bacteria that consumes lots and lots of nutrients after all), it's just not the right effect. The challenge with carbon dosing is getting the heterotrophic bacteria you can't see as a gross red slime covering everything to become dominant, then managing it in such a way that leaves enough nutrient in the water for your corals. That's not always easy to do, which is where I think a lot of the detractors come from.

You know, controlling nitrates (with bio pellets) and preventing cyano is actually very, very simple. That is, if you use Brightwell's MB7. Very cheap, and helps make your water and tank look very clean. As I reported earlier in this thread, and on others, I have not had a cyano problem since I started using this a couple years ago.

It is almost frustrating for me to keep seeing these threads about cyano (and bio pellet issues) and how academically complicated this issue is, when in reality it is so simple and easy to control, from a practical user perspective. There may be other remedies, but I do know that MB7 is a sure fire one.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

You know, controlling nitrates (with bio pellets) and preventing cyano is actually very, very simple. That is, if you use Brightwell's MB7. Very cheap, and helps make your water and tank look very clean. As I reported earlier in this thread, and on others, I have not had a cyano problem since I started using this a couple years ago.

It is almost frustrating for me to keep seeing these threads about cyano (and bio pellet issues) and how academically complicated this issue is, when in reality it is so simple and easy to control, from a practical user perspective. There may be other remedies, but I do know that MB7 is a sure fire one.

I think it's definitely worth trying out, but I'll be honest I've looked at several bacterial supplements under a microscope before (Dr. Tim's, zeobak, and one other brand that was spawned from one of the fish tank reality shows), and with the 40x 400 power lens, I couldn't see a single thing that could be construed as alive. I saw lots of what looked like organic debris, but there was no movement of any kind, and nothing that looked like a cell. It's entirely possible that my scope doesn't magnify enough as some prokaryotes are really very small, but when I look at something like cyanobacteria, or a dollop of dinos under the microscope, it's a veritable cacophony of cells, movement and life.

I've never looked at MB7 under the scope, but I know that in academic institutions, live biological samples like bacteria would never ever be stored at room temperature in a completely sealed container for any length of time. Even if they're added to a nutrient rich substrate, at room temperature they'd be dividing at an exponential rate. After a week the chances that they wouldn't have consumed all of their food and all available oxygen and suffered a total population collapse would be very, very low.

By the time you buy it at the store, you have no way of knowing how long it's been since it was packaged, what sort of temperature fluctuations it's gone through on its way to you, or really even what sort of fluid the bacteria have been added to. I'm not saying you won't get some bacteria, but the scientist in me cringes a little every time I see those bottles of zeobak collecting dust on the shelf at the LFS that is usually between 25-28 degrees with 99% humidity.

If the relatively small, low resource aquarium companies have figured out a way to put bacteria in to suspended animation indefinitely at room temperature and the best funded labs and universities on earth haven't, I'd be very, very, very shocked.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I've never looked at MB7 under the scope, but I know that in academic institutions, live biological samples like bacteria would never ever be stored at room temperature in a completely sealed container for any length of time. Even if they're added to a nutrient rich substrate, at room temperature they'd be dividing at an exponential rate. After a week the chances that they wouldn't have consumed all of their food and all available oxygen and suffered a total population collapse would be very, very low.

Well, they do say to refrigerate after opening the seal, and I do. Not sure exactly how it works, but must be something alive in there. If you have cloudiness in your tank for some reason (like cleaning your sand), it will clear that up in hours (did that a few times) and make your water crystal clear. Also clears up mulm and bio pellet clumping. Without it, you will have a real problem trying to get your pellets tumbling properly.

I have had the cyano try to start up a few times, and I just increased the MB7 dosage for a week or so, and it would clear up. I think they say it seeds beneficial bacteria (whatever that is) which out competes the cyano.

So, just giving you the non-academic practical experience view... It definitely works for me.

[waynemah]

I had a huge cyano problem recently. I busted out the best YOLO tune I could find and dumped 300G ChemiClean treatment into my sump. Pulled the skimmer cup off and turned the carbon off. Within a day it was all gone and everything was still alive. Once I turned the carbon on and skimmed the Checmiclean out the corals were back with excellent polyp extension and fish were eating as usual.

I'm very picky about my water. The Phosphates and Nitrates were barely detectable, but I still had carpets of this stuff... If it comes back, I'll just Chemiclean the thing again. It was just microbubble fest for a week.

[ponokareefer]

I started my first ever battle with Cyano this summer after introducing something from someone's tank that had it in it. I thought the only sure way to get rid of it was total tank darkness for an extended period, which I wasn't willing to do. Great information here, thank you everyone. I look forward to seeing how this works for you wreck.

Anyone know where you can get Chemiclean and Chemi-Pure Elite in central Alberta or Edmonton?

[lastlight]

I think I got my Chemiclean from Pisces. Ive done it twice and it works like a charm. This last time instead of doing quite such a massive water change after treatment (skimmer just overflows until you do) I just did my regularly scheduled water change. To make the skimmer work when it would otherwise overflow (it's already opened fully and overflows) I just positioned the skimmer cup at an angle so much of the bubbles don't rise up the cup's neck but escape where the cup joins the body. In this way I was able to skim water that otherwise overflowed my cup. Each day I just moved the cup closer to vertical orientation and in 3 days it was skimming normally.

The product has no effect on anything else and is dirt cheap!

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by ponokareefer

I started my first ever battle with Cyano this summer after introducing something from someone's tank that had it in it. I thought the only sure way to get rid of it was total tank darkness for an extended period, which I wasn't willing to do. Great information here, thank you everyone. I look forward to seeing how this works for you wreck.

Anyone know where you can get Chemiclean and Chemi-Pure Elite in central Alberta or Edmonton?

Aquarium Illusions in Edmonton usually has these items on the shelf.

[michika]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

You know, controlling nitrates (with bio pellets) and preventing cyano is actually very, very simple. That is, if you use Brightwell's MB7. Very cheap, and helps make your water and tank look very clean. As I reported earlier in this thread, and on others, I have not had a cyano problem since I started using this a couple years ago.

It is almost frustrating for me to keep seeing these threads about cyano (and bio pellet issues) and how academically complicated this issue is, when in reality it is so simple and easy to control, from a practical user perspective. There may be other remedies, but I do know that MB7 is a sure fire one.

"Cheap"? Right...cheap is relative don't forget.

Per the Brightwell page for dosing instructions; high nutrient is 5mL/25g for the first two weeks, then you switch to the low nutrient dosing levels which is 5mL/50g. Currently my tank has a volume of 600g, soon to be about 750g. Using the 600g number on a large tank like mine I'd be dosing in EXCESS of 120mL/day at the initial dosing recommendation and then about 60mL/day. A 2L bottle is $40.10 at JL (excluding shipping and taxes). A 2L bottle will last me 16.66 days at the high nutrient dosing amount. The lower dosing would last a little more then a month; 36.36 days. Therefor I could expect to have a fixed monthly cost of $40 + shipping & taxes. That isn't particularly economic. Add in the fix costs of running your tank (utilities, food, salt, etc.) and you can be easily paying out a large monthly cost for your hobby enjoyment.

To conclude when we talk about "cheap" we need to recognize that its a relevant term in comparision to systems, economics (prices at LFSs, accessiblity, etc.), and feasibility. What is realistic for someone isn't realistic for another.

Also remember a lot of these threads are people advising others of their experiences. Advice is often just a regurgitation of things that have worked for others, but isn't necessarily based on hard facts or provable science. Just because something worked for you is not a guarantee that it will work for someone else.

Additionally asylumdown has provided us all some great academic based responses in regards to cyano. I think it really does put much of the discussion into black and white terms when it comes to why some tanks may have cyano and others don't. I suspect that those points are the ones most often missed when we talk amongst ourselves in the reefing community about solving this issue when it appears.

Disclaimer: I have cyano, I've had it since I missed ONE water change during the Southern Alberta floods. I've tried Coral Snow, bacterial dosing (Zeobak)increasing my water changes, amending the flow patterns in my tank, and doing absolutely nothing. And you know what nothing has worked. I bought many products on the recommendations of others because it also worked for them. So there you go, why I felt the need to chime in.

/devil's advocate moment.

[asylumdown]

And I just want to put it out there that I've done some more research in to the specific strains that are likely in a bacterial dosing product like MB7. If they are using one of the strains of prokaryotic heterotrophs that can form endospores, then I can see it being possible for the product to actually have viable culture inside it long term. So while I'm still skeptical as to whether or not adding a tincture of say 100,000 bacterial spores to an aquarium already populated with several trillion bacterial cells does much, I will concede that it is in fact possible, if the right strains are chosen and they are prepared in an appropriate manner and solution, for viable bacteria to still be present buy the time you buy it.

The same can not be said for bacterial supplements designed to speed up the cycle, as the nitrifying autotrophs responsible for that cannot form endospores and go in to suspended animation.

It would be all so much easier to look in to if any of these companies would publish which bacteria they're using, but I'm guessing it's more likely that I will win the lottery tonight.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

And I just want to put it out there that I've done some more research in to the specific strains that are likely in a bacterial dosing product like MB7. If they are using one of the strains of prokaryotic heterotrophs that can form endospores, then I can see it being possible for the product to actually have viable culture inside it long term. So while I'm still skeptical as to whether or not adding a tincture of say 100,000 bacterial spores to an aquarium already populated with several trillion bacterial cells does much, I will concede that it is in fact possible, if the right strains are chosen and they are prepared in an appropriate manner and solution, for viable bacteria to still be present buy the time you buy it.

The same can not be said for bacterial supplements designed to speed up the cycle, as the nitrifying autotrophs responsible for that cannot form endospores and go in to suspended animation.

It would be all so much easier to look in to if any of these companies would publish which bacteria they're using, but I'm guessing it's more likely that I will win the lottery tonight.

Thanks for your continued research efforts into the subject. It must be a fair bit of work and it is appreciated.

I am just reporting on my experience, and don't have any scientific back-up for what worked for me. But I did see some cause and effect, which is what convinced me.