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#1
10-26-2013, 07:05 AM
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#2
10-26-2013, 07:52 AM
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__________________
Hey! I never "LEFT" the hobby, just doing fresh water now. Which is still listed as part of Canreef if I'm not mistaken. 
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#4
10-26-2013, 02:25 PM
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I'm not saying that the cheap fixtures don't work. Of course they will and people are happy with them for now. But talk to me after two years of using them when the LEDs are dimming or burning out because of cheaper drivers or poor thermal management. Or the drivers themselves are dying or the power supplies are dying, or worse, catching fire. I know that sounds alarmist but recently I've seen a different affordable chinese product which works well, is a fraction of the price of competing european products but has power supplies that sometimes fail in scary ways.
You do get what you pay for. If you want to buy something at a lower price but have to replace it every two years that's your choice. I had a similar discussion with someone recently that was the whole Apple vs. cheaper PC one. She said that she could buy a PC laptop with the same specs as an Apple one for much less. While that's true, you pay for quality components and craftmanship. I'm currently typing this on my 6 year old Macbook Pro. It still runs like a champ espite having been very well used and dropped numerous times (to the point it has several dents and the top bezel separating from the body) etc. I don't know too many people who can say the same about their budget PC laptops. I completely get trying to do things on a budget and I also agree that some of the high end fixtures are probably overpriced for what they are. But you generally do get what you pay for and I'm pretty sure you will see far more people still using their Vertex Illumina 5 or 6 years from now than you will their Taotronics or Pharos etc.
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#5
10-26-2013, 02:50 PM
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I hardly think every Apple computer component is made in the good ol' USA. Perhaps the computers are 'assembled' in the US (more likely Mexico), but I hardly think the insides are all manufactured in North America. Don't know where you've been lately, but I reckon even Cree LEDs are made in Asia or somewhere else where labour costs are minimal. There's no way to compete these days even for the big players if they aren't taking advantage of low cost labour in developing countries.
I'm typing this on my Compaq notebook which I've had for almost 10 years now & it's still working fine. Did have issues, the power connector went wonky, but I had that replaced while the notebook was still under warranty. Other than that I've upgraded the RAM to keep it running reasonably quick with Windows XP. Same story with LEDs really. You'll likely find that bridgelux, Phillips and other companies are having them made offshore. As far as fixture cost, seems to me I've seen some threads on high end Radion fixtures having problems with their cooling fans failing. That should definitely not happen with a fixture of that price point. Where's the quality control there and where do you suppose those fans come from? The fans on my DIY LED fixture are starting to give out as well, but I can replace them easily & I know they're cheap, so I'm prepared for that with a few spares. I don't have to send the fixture back to EcoTech or wait for them to ship me a new fan. And when my LEDs start fading away, I can easily replace them with the same cheapies or take advantage of the latest multichip technology/colour at an even lower price than what I paid for the originals. I don't need to replace the whole fixture. Admittedly, some of the pricier fixtures these days are modular, so you can change out the LEDs there as well. Anyhow, to each his own. If money is no object, go for the most expensive fixture out there with all the bells & whistles. If you're on a budget, with a bit of research, you can easily get or build something that will be just as good at keeping your livestock healthy without breaking the bank.
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Mike 77g sumpless SW DIY 10 watt multi-chip LED build  http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82206
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#7
10-26-2013, 08:33 PM
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#8
10-26-2013, 11:32 PM
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Apple computers are assembled in China using components that come from electronics companies all over the world (chips from the US or Japan or Korea, LCD screens from Japan and Korea, hard drives from Japan etc. Probably even numerous components from China. Apple bought CNC mills to put at it’s Chinese manufacturing partner’s facility (Foxconn) to machine all the aluminum enclosures etc. in-house in China. However, they are assembled to Apple’s specs and requirements. In fact, most of the consumer electronics we use are assembled in China but design and components are specified by Apple, Sony, Microsoft etc. It’s not about where something is built but about the design, the quality of the components and the quality control that is required by and overseen by the particular “brand”. And not all brands are created equal. Sony used ot have a great reputation for quality and reliability (not sure they still do). Apple does too. I have used tons of Apple hardware starting in the early 90s and I have very rarely seen a hardware failure (or major software failure for that matter). Part of what you pay for with Apple is also the OS and the R&D that has gone into it.
Anyhow, I'm not here to make this into a PC vs. Apple debate :-) The cheap LED fixtures are slapped together by the companies in China without any R&D, design or long term testing. As for the LED chips, Cree does produce their own chips at Fabs in the US. I believe Phillips does as well. Bridgelux designs the chips but doesn’t manufacture themselves. They contract that out and I believe Toshiba is one of their big contractors for the actual chips. Seoul Semiconductor is Korean and I imagine manufacture their chips at facilities there. Now anyone can take a high quality LED emitter from Cree for example and run it on a cheap driver with a crappy heatsink etc. They will still have problems down the road. It’s the overall package that’s important. I’ve spoken to several people who have run cheap fixtures and they were happy with them in the short term but not over the long term because of problems. Sure people have problems with expensive fixtures too but at least you will get warranty support etc for those. It’s harder to get support for the cheapo ones. I can't see how a $200 120W LED light can have any quality components in it. It will either be generic LEDs or the cheapest bins from Cree or Bridgelux etc. And they will have to skimp on power supplies and drivers etc to come in at that price. There's no way. I haven't checked prices today but you can't DIY a decent 120W LED fixture for $200. And even at lower costs with volume purchases of components a $200 fixture is not going to have any quality whatsoever. Does that mean I suggest you run out and buy a $2000 fixture? No, not at all. But don't try to make it sound like a $200 fixture is going to perform anywhere near as well as a $2000 fixture. It's just not possible. If you want to get a quality LED light on a budget then DIY is the way to go. It isn’t particularly difficult for anyone even remotely handy. I still have the four foot fixture I built several years ago using Cree emitters and Meanwell drivers and overkill heatsinks etc. I’m getting ready to re-enter the world of large reef tanks and will be using it on a new 120 gallon build as I can’t afford to spend $1800 on a Vertex fixture or a couple Radion Pros etc. But if I were buying an off the shelf fixture I would avoid the cheap generic/rebranded Chinese fixtures for many of the reasons I mentioned. In fact, I haven’t even seen a mid range fixture that I particularly like (Maxspect, Kessil etc). If I couldn’t afford a high end fixture I would just go DIY again. You can then build something for your own personal application with the mix of colours and configuration you want.
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