Glass Cardinal - Problems?

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

The Scribbled Rabbitfish is a poor choice for a 46-gallon aquarium. This fish gets to be 9-11" and most Rabbitfish grow fairly quickly.

Except when they don't...

I've had a pair of doliatus for three years. They're still 4".

Paul has had a blonde naso in a 280 for the better part of a year now. He's still 7". He was living in a 120 for two and a half years prior to that.

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

The rabbitfish would most assuredly want a larger tank, but the idea that it will grow to its full adult size (and quickly at that) doesn't have a lot of overlap with reality. When's the last time you saw a 9" powder blue tang? Or a 10" foxface? I've seen plenty of 3-5 year old fish that are still sitting at a very manageable 4-6". If it it hasn't gotten to its adult size in that time frame, it probably isn't going to... Ever.

Anyway, back on topic - cardinals are delicate and easily beaten up. But I doubt that, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, that its due to the efforts of the ginormous and infamously vicious rabbitfish.

[naesco]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Except when they don't...

I've had a pair of doliatus for three years. They're still 4".

Paul has had a blonde naso in a 280 for the better part of a year now. He's still 7". He was living in a 120 for two and a half years prior to that.

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

The rabbitfish would most assuredly want a larger tank, but the idea that it will grow to its full adult size (and quickly at that) doesn't have a lot of overlap with reality. When's the last time you saw a 9" powder blue tang? Or a 10" foxface? I've seen plenty of 3-5 year old fish that are still sitting at a very manageable 4-6". If it it hasn't gotten to its adult size in that time frame, it probably isn't going to... Ever.

Anyway, back on topic - cardinals are delicate and easily beaten up. But I doubt that, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, that its due to the efforts of the ginormous and infamously vicious rabbitfish.

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

1.You stunt the fish which means that you cause it stress which is multiplied if there are other fish in the the tank. It is our responsibility as hobbyists to provide optimum conditions for the fish that we choose to remove from the ocean. We can provide a suitable sized tank.
2. You cannot reasonably feed a tang in a 45 gallon tank as you would pollute it with ammonia far too quickly. What some keepers of SPC and other fragile coral do is cut back on the food which reduces the ammonia and provides minimum food for the fish. That is the second reason they do not grow.

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.

[albert_dao]

.... Man, you are like some sorta Captain Planet of the aquarium or something.

Edit: I'm a little tied up here, but expect a nice long retort in a few hours.

[Rice Reef]

Originally Posted by naesco

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.

I would like to apologize to the OP for having to read his comments. Most people on Can Reef do not throw their authoritarian attitudes around here and are infact, very friendly and helpful.

This is a hobby and we are all here to inform and learn but when someone throws their opinion out in such a bullish manner I do not tolerate it regardless who is right and who is wrong. Something like this could have been discussed privately and if you are going to make it public at least be considerate of others.

Reading this makes me sick and it really takes the fun and interest out of the hobby. You are probably right but to call someone out like that in a public is just down right mean.

[naesco]

Originally Posted by Rice Reef

I would like to apologize to the OP for having to read his comments. Most people on Can Reef do not throw their authoritarian attitudes around here and are infact, very friendly and helpful.

This is a hobby and we are all here to inform and learn but when someone throws their opinion out in such a bullish manner I do not tolerate it regardless who is right and who is wrong. Something like this could have been discussed privately and if you are going to make it public at least be considerate of others.

Reading this makes me sick and it really takes the fun and interest out of the hobby. You are probably right but to call someone out like that in a public is just down right mean.

Please read my post in reply to the OP, and, you are right in hindsight I should have sent a PM to Albert asking him to 'clarify' his post rather than posting.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by naesco

You are dead wrong.
Yes a tang will not grow to its adult size in a 45 gallon tank. The reasons are two (at least)

1.You stunt the fish which means that you cause it stress which is multiplied if there are other fish in the the tank. It is our responsibility as hobbyists to provide optimum conditions for the fish that we choose to remove from the ocean. We can provide a suitable sized tank.
2. You cannot reasonably feed a tang in a 45 gallon tank as you would pollute it with ammonia far too quickly. What some keepers of SPC and other fragile coral do is cut back on the food which reduces the ammonia and provides minimum food for the fish. That is the second reason they do not grow.

I might add that I am really disappointed. We have a new reefer here who unknowingly is making the typical mistakes. Instead of confirming Myka's adivice which you know is right, you post this nonsense which makes new reefers think that it is ok to put tangs and rabbitfish in 45 gallon tanks.
You know Myka is right so let the OP know you agree with her.

I'm just going to call you out on this crap right now -- This is some sort of liberal arts project for you or something. I mean, it must be. No one can take such a profusely impractical stance on such hypocritical context and believe in it without some degree of trolling.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

MOST fish grow to the size of their tank. Tangs and rabbitfish are inclusive rather than exclusive to this rule. There are exceptions to like Elasmobranchs, remoras and other pelagic species.

Please do some research on the impact that stunted growth has on lifespan. You will have to hunt around, the information is mostly hidden in scholarly articles and most of the articles refer to freshwater fish which information may or may not also be true for saltwater fish. The trouble is, there aren't really any studies or published articles out there directly relating to this question, more that they have comments within their studies. Good luck!

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

Please do some research on the impact that stunted growth has on lifespan. You will have to hunt around, the information is mostly hidden in scholarly articles and most of the articles refer to freshwater fish which information may or may not also be true for saltwater fish. The trouble is, there aren't really any studies or published articles out there directly relating to this question, more that they have comments within their studies. Good luck!

You realize that fish like tangs and angels, etc, live for something on the order of 25 years in captivity right? This is well beyond their wild lifespan. And honestly, what the hell is the difference between my fish living for ten years and 25 years? My dog doesn't even live that long. I am not morally obligated to keep them alive for the entire "possible" duration of their lifespan no more than I am morally obligated to leave them in the ocean.

Everyone keeps on saying "yah, those are freshwater studies done on growth limiting hormones, mostly in tilapia". Which is besides the point given that there is enough observable data out there that I would be more than happy get get behind my statement -- Again, how many dinner plate sized powder blues/yellow tangs are sitting in people's tanks?

[Myka]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

I am not morally obligated to keep them alive for the entire "possible" duration of their lifespan no more than I am morally obligated to leave them in the ocean.

Again, how many dinner plate sized powder blues/yellow tangs are sitting in people's tanks?

Oh you're very right, most people don't keep them alive long enough for them to be "dinner plate-sized".

I didn't say anything about moral obligation.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

Oh you're very right, most people don't keep them alive long enough for them to be "dinner plate-sized".

I didn't say anything about moral obligation.

You know, this is my damn point. And it has nothing to do with small tanks.