Tank size for Tangs? An evaluation...

[titus]

Hello,

Okay I can say this. If someone offers to me the following:

1) all the beautiful women in the world (reproductive)
2) all the toys I can have (fun)
3) all the food I can eat (food/resources)
4) a big house to live in (shelter)

but confines me to live only within the area of the house, I wouldn't be too happy. Reminds me of the movie "Planet of the Apes", where humans were offered everything but confined within bars under the observation of apes.

I believe there is a definite relationship between the points Diomedes listed and swimming behavior. But at the same time, removing those points doesn't necessarily remove the swimming behavior.

I try to think of it this way:
1) model the fish brain/behavior as a finite state machine (just think of it like a computer), which outputs depend on its current state, inputs, and the relationship (model) that governs the inputs, outpts, current state, and next state as:
outputs & next_state = model(current_state, inputs)

2) Given the above relationship, removing the inputs (ie food, reproductive requirements, and predation or risk level) doesn't necessarily change the outputs & next_state (behavior), etc.

Okay enough of this logic. I think communication and dsp is more fun.

Titus

[Diomedes]

Good point titus, but we cannot determine a Tang's happiness by drawing parallel lines to our own personal experience...I know a few people who would take what you shun. But that doesn't mean a fish is happy (or not) in any system. And your calculations, obviously more complex than mine are really interesting. But I still don't understand them...
I am not here to say that a given small tang is happy or not in a 33, nor did my calculations. They simply showed that a world expert gives his MINIMUM tank size as less. I'll bet he prefers more space though...
Second, I did not mean to imply that fulfilling a tang's foraging needs etc. would also negate its needs for space. I guess it kinda sounds like it, but I believe that eliminating/changing these 4 needs also changes (not eliminates) their natural need for space.

[Troy F]

>I will start by saying that a fish having a brain the size of a pea cannot be happy or unhappy<

I know people that have similar traits and they appear happy.

>Is a 180 really any better, compared with the home we took them from? No.<

I couldn't disagree more. There's no comparison.

>I read in my previous post that someone purchased a 1.5 cm juvnile tang for a 70 gal tank and that it had died by being caught into the overflow.<

Actually Doug's tank is a 170 and honestly, he thinks it couldn't handle the current but it's just his guess. It's possible that it didn't handle the stress of lights out or any number of things and that is where it ended up. The argument that, "if I don't buy one, someone with a worse/smaller set up will" isn't very strong. If the people without proper systems stop buying unsuitable fish, the stores will stop carrying as many.

>I also keep a tang in my reef to study it's behaviour not just because of it's beauty.<

What would you be studying about a surgeon fish's behaviour in a 33gal tank? It's natural tendencies?

[Aquattro]

Originally posted by Troy F:
[QB
>Is a 180 really any better, compared with the home we took them from? No.

I couldn't disagree more. There's no comparison.

[/QB]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Troy, you're disagreeing with this?? To reiterate, I'm saying a 180 is no better than a 33 when compared to the ocean.

[Canadian]

a) The aquarium is 27g with the footprint of a 33g (not a 33g with the footprint of a 40g).

b) The size of the remaining Tang has repeatedly been referenced as 3cm and yet if you look at this picture of the tank when it had 2 Tangs and do a little math to figure out the scale you get the following (17" monitor, blah, blah, blah the specifics don't really matter because everything is kept to scale anyway.): On my monitor the tank in the picture is 81mm long, and the smallest of the 2 Tangs (which is not parallel to the front pane of glass and is actually turned sideways somewhat) is 6mm long. Assuming the tank is indeed 36" long, 6/81 x 36" equals a 2-2/3" (or 6.8cm) Tang. Do either of the fish in the picture seriously look like they're 3% of the length of the tank?

c) Consider the observations made by Richard Harker: Upon setting up his newest aquarium (the really long one - I forget how long it was exactly - something like 12 or 15 feet) he noted that his Yellow Tangs began to exhibit much more natural behavior (swimming patterns in particular) than they had in smaller aquariums. Granted, the above case is in reference to a Yellow Tang and not a Regal Tang, but Harker's observations clearly indicate that "eliminating/changing" the aforementioned "4 needs" had a limited effect on "natural need for space", and that the desire for space was intrinsic and, once fulfilled, facilitated significant changes in behavior.

[ 19 September 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: Canadian ]

[jedimaster]

Interesting post but the one calculation you forgot to mention was a tangs natural environment.
approx
2,000,000,000 gallons of water per inch of fish.

Now you mean to tell me that 5 gallons per inch of fish or 30 or 40 or 100 or 1000 is enough?
Obviously none are adequate. The whole point is that most people would like to give as much room as possible for any living creature. And for most people the largest practical size tank is 100 gallons, many people however choose to go larger, even better.
The fact remains a 27 gallon fish tank is too tiny, as is a 150 gallon tank. But if YOU were locked up in a cage for the rest of your life would you want it to be 27 square feet or 100 square feet.

JMHO

[Doug]

Actually Troy, it was the 180. My yellow is in the 170. However your correct, in that it could have been a thousand things. They are very fragile, when that young.

My post saying they should be kept in smaller tanks, was just for captive raised baby hippo,s.

A lot of advice on tank sizes for large fish, were supposed to be in general, {talking all boards here}. If the new aquarists, keep on putting them in their 20g/undergravel filter systems,{as is done everywhere}, the import and useless slaughter of wildlife will continue.

Its the same as the anemone issue. It was supposed to be in a general form, that people were telling new aquarists they were harder to keep. Flame wars were fought over that also. Then someone, :rolleyes: said, just feed them, and they dont even require much light. :( So now nobody says much about keeping some of the species and most new aquarists, give it a try.

Come here for a visit and I will take you to a store, where bleached seabaes are sold on a regular basis to aquarists, with their 20 gal tanks, little lighting and no knowledge. Lets just keep ripping them from the ocean. :(

There are posters on both sides of the arguments, that cant see the trees for the forest. They have to wade in with crap, directed at someone in person, about their tank being to small, and then someone on the other side calling everyone that says that, an idiot,etc,etc. I have seen it over & over.

You know whats suffering. Perhaps not the tangs in sff,s tank, or a friends 60 gal. with a fat, happy yellow, etc. Its the above mentioned large fish & anemones & some hard to keep species of corals, because experienced aquarists are starting to say the hell with it, because of a few, in every post on this topic, on every board.

A couple years ago, with the advent of all the boards, some of the posts were actually making a difference. Now, {as with tangs}, its a big freakin, tang police joke and that,IMO, is a crying shame.

Diomedes, although I dont agree myself, I like your post. Bringing up the topic like you have, with a decent argument on your behalf, cant help but do the hobby good. Regardless if correct or otherwise, it is in your opinion, and the way you have put it, is the way a response should be to some of these types of posts. A lot more aquarists would then see good opposing views, instead of name calling and flame wars,{in general}.

I once said I would never again post on one of these threads, {but now I have opened my big mouth}. Its just to impotant of a topic to stay out of. Hope this keeps on going, with good posts.

However, right now, I have to go watch Survivor. :D

[naesco]

Diomedes
The comments directed to me personally in your post in the thread entitled "Prizm Skimmer" called reefer Ryan7 to ask you "What kind of educated person expresses their views like you have done?"
Why has it taken you four full days to apologise for your rudeness?
However, I accept your apology as set out in this thread.
I need to ask you the following questions>

What is the size of your present tank?
How long has it been established?
How many years experience have you had with keeping tangs?
Which species of tangs?
Your success and failures and with which species of tangs?
How long have you observed the behaviour in your home of your tangs in a smaller tank (less than 100) next to a large one?

If I who have kept many species of tangs over 8 years and others on this board with tang experience were to share with you our experience would it make any difference to you?
Thank you for starting this thread.

[SuperFudge]

Sorry,I swayed a little off topic.

[ 19 September 2002, 20:49: Message edited by: Superfudge ]

[naesco]

Superfudge posted as follows

"98% of us do not purchase the fish to NOT give them anything less than our best care"
Perfect [img]smile.gif[/img]
So how do we do that.
1. By reading books about the fish we keep, visiting online sites such as canreef.
2. By joining clubs like Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton
3. By learning from those people who already have the experience with the species of fish we are interested in.

As reefer Ryan7 posted in the prizm skimmer thread
"The so called tang police are nothing more than a group of reefers experienced in keeping tangs who are more than happy to share their experience with all of us."
So why is it necessary for some of us to purchase powder blue tangs only to have them die in our tanks and take most of the existing healthy fish with them?
So why is it necessary to try to reinvent this whole tang tank size issue to justify our keeping tangs in less than optimal conditions?
In my opinion we owe it to the critters we keep and our hobby to be concientious reef keepers.
The days of filling our tanks with impossible to keep species and, species unsuitable for our tanks are over.
It is simply not acceptable.
I am in the beginnings of setting up a new reef tank. I am looking forward to your sharing your experience with me.