Data: Wrong; Sustainability: Don't care; Robert Wintner: Aquarium trade should stop!

[Psyire]

As with any profession, there are people who are good at it and people who stink. Nothing new here, just media sensationalism at it's worst... again..

[daniella3d]

Well, when I see dozen of fish die in one aquarium only, it really makes me think those fish would have been better in the ocean.

It's a good thing that at least we do have a few fish that are captive bred. Efforts should be made to go in that direction and some fish should definitely not be imported as too many die too quick.

Banning fish import for aquarium trade would be nearly impossible. Economically it is not realistic. Too many business rely on this hobby, it would be really bad. Things should be regulated, but surely not banned.

I support the Sea Sheppard organization with donations each year, not sure I will keep at it now! hmmmm...

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

Well, when I see dozen of fish die in one aquarium only, it really makes me think those fish would have been better in the ocean.

It's a good thing that at least we do have a few fish that are captive bred. Efforts should be made to go in that direction and some fish should definitely not be imported as too many die too quick.

Banning fish import for aquarium trade would be nearly impossible. Economically it is not realistic. Too many business rely on this hobby, it would be really bad. Things should be regulated, but surely not banned.

I support the Sea Sheppard organization with donations each year, not sure I will keep at it now! hmmmm...

Right you are Daniella. Everything has the ugly side and not just the aquarium trade. It seems like taking "down" aquarium trade would be a long term commitment (not to say near impossible like you wrote) and hence a "heck lot of cash flow" for the "campaign" (wink wink). I believe the donation which goes from you to sea sheppard would be better off in research facilities to fund captive breeding. Companies like ORA, walt smith, etc. are already doing great favor not only to the hobby but also to the ocean and proper funding can take it a long way and make it more accessible instead of the funds going to "personal insights".

[TimT]

Originally Posted by naesco

3. Pressure the marine industry to stop the import of impossible to keep species and very difficult to keep fish like cleaner wrasse that provide a vital cleaning job on he fish in the oceans.

Since I have been in the marine industry since 1999 I will respond to this.

1. 18 years ago you could not keep acropora alive. It was shipped but never survived or did well. I remember getting some cultured acros from Waikiki Aquarium and we(VMAS group order) were all very excited when they arrived alive. Even though they were about $50 each and completely brown. If corals had been banned we would not know how to culture them and grow them in aquariums or ocean based farms for reef rehab. So I personally have gone from getting very excited about getting a brown acro frag to having acros spawn in my system. Banning something just because they are supposedly poor survivors is not the solution.


2.There is a reason why cleaner wrasses from Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam are difficult to keep fish and it has nothing to do with the fish. It is almost entirely how they are caught(with cyanide), how they are packed(2.5" long fish in a 4" bag with 1/2" of water) and how they are handled by the airlines(we put your fish in the cooler as it was warmer than the warehouse or they get left baking under a hot tropical sun in Manila or Bali). Once the pet shops get the fish some are treated very well while other stores just slash the bag and dump the fish straight into the aquarium.

I personally have had cleaner wrasse look dead in the bag. Not breathing and when you touch the fish it had no response. I put the fish aside and 30 minutes later the fish is swimming and looking normal so I acclimated it. 3 weeks later I sold the fish.

In general Cleaner Wrasses from Hawaii and the South Pacific do fine while their Indo-Pacific counterparts don't have a chance. It really is all about the care and treatment of the fish from the reef to retail and not so much that they are difficult.

Cheers,
Tim

[naesco]

Originally Posted by TimT

Since I have been in the marine industry since 1999 I will respond to this.

1. 18 years ago you could not keep acropora alive. It was shipped but never survived or did well. I remember getting some cultured acros from Waikiki Aquarium and we(VMAS group order) were all very excited when they arrived alive. Even though they were about $50 each and completely brown. If corals had been banned we would not know how to culture them and grow them in aquariums or ocean based farms for reef rehab. So I personally have gone from getting very excited about getting a brown acro frag to having acros spawn in my system. Banning something just because they are supposedly poor survivors is not the solution.


2.There is a reason why cleaner wrasses from Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam are difficult to keep fish and it has nothing to do with the fish. It is almost entirely how they are caught(with cyanide), how they are packed(2.5" long fish in a 4" bag with 1/2" of water) and how they are handled by the airlines(we put your fish in the cooler as it was warmer than the warehouse or they get left baking under a hot tropical sun in Manila or Bali). Once the pet shops get the fish some are treated very well while other stores just slash the bag and dump the fish straight into the aquarium.

I personally have had cleaner wrasse look dead in the bag. Not breathing and when you touch the fish it had no response. I put the fish aside and 30 minutes later the fish is swimming and looking normal so I acclimated it. 3 weeks later I sold the fish.

In general Cleaner Wrasses from Hawaii and the South Pacific do fine while their Indo-Pacific counterparts don't have a chance. It really is all about the care and treatment of the fish from the reef to retail and not so much that they are difficult.

Cheers,
Tim

Thank you Tim.

So your point is "Continue to import species like the the cleaner wrasse even though they have little chance of sucess because they are caught with cyanide and packed and caught poorly. When they are imported they than die in our tanks.
Considering the good work they do in the sea IMO we should not be importing them if they can't survive whether it is cyanide, shipping or the nature of the fish. (BTW I do not agree with your comment that it has nothing to do with the fish).

[SanguinesDream]

[kien]

All of the organisms that we harvest from the wild just simply need to evolve to survive, or they will face extinction. Plain and simple. If they can not adapt or evolve to live in a world with man's habbits, that's partly their challenge to sort out.

For the entire history of the planet, and well before mankind, species have come and gone for the exact same reasons that species are coming and going today. Climate change, loss of habitat, failure to adapt, out competed for resources, hunted to extinction by other animals, etc.

Who was there to help save the hundreds of thousands of species of dinosaurs from extinction? The mammoth? Sabre tooth tigers? Who was there to help save early homanids from extinction? Who was there to help save Neandethals from extinction?

And in fact, in all of our efforts to save species from extinction, are we not then hindering natural selection?

Survival of the fittest. Is that not the natural order of things?

Human beings are a very destructive species. But then so were so many other animals at the top of their food chain. Humans were put here by the same natural forces that put every other organism on this planet. Concepts like morality are artificial constructs that humans invented. Mother Nature knows no such thing.

[kien]

Originally Posted by kien

All of the organisms that we harvest from the wild just simply need to evolve to survive, or they will face extinction. Plain and simple. If they can not adapt or evolve to live in a world with man's habbits, that's partly their challenge to sort out.

For the entire history of the planet, and well before mankind, species have come and gone for the exact same reasons that species are coming and going today. Climate change, loss of habitat, failure to adapt, out competed for resources, hunted to extinction by other animals, etc.

Who was there to help save the hundreds of thousands of species of dinosaurs from extinction? The mammoth? Sabre tooth tigers? Who was there to help save early homanids from extinction? Who was there to help save Neandethals from extinction?

And in fact, in all of our efforts to save species from extinction, are we not then hindering natural selection?

Survival of the fittest. Is that not the natural order of things?

Human beings are a very destructive species. But then so were so many other animals at the top of their food chain. Humans were put here by the same natural forces that put every other organism on this planet. Concepts like morality are artificial constructs that humans invented. Mother Nature knows no such thing.

Having said all that, I totally support conservation efforts and regulatory efforts. We have the power to, so why not.

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by kien

Having said all that, I totally support conservation efforts and regulatory efforts. We have the power to, so why not.

It would be interesting to see "Save the deer; stop tigers from hunting!"

[SanguinesDream]

Originally Posted by kien

Who was there to help save Neandethals from extinction?

Rugby and ale. But in all fairness that only slowed their extinction as some still manage the chance to procreate after title wins.