Possible zoa poisoning

[Zoaelite]

Originally Posted by fishytime

so he was imagining his symptoms and the doctor was wrong?


why do some people find it necessary to try and identify which ones are toxic and which ones are not?.....is it not a good thing just for all reefers in general to handle ALL zoanthus species with caution, so there is no second guessing?....especially when nine times out of ten no one on the internet can even agree on what morph is what.... you know I respect your opinion Levi, but to say this one is toxic and that one isnt toxic when you yourself are just speculating is irresponsible when your opinion on zoas is respected

Brought you back from the dead did I ?

Please note, at no time am I downplaying the need for protective gear when handling these species. Do some of these organisms contain the "Palytoxin" that ever one claims to be poisoned by? Yes.

Do all of them contain the toxin? No.

My point is this; there is a multitude of toxic compounds produced by ANY of the Cnidarians we keep in our tank take caution when handling or fragging any of these species.

I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

I see two out comes from people reading these threads; 1) Protect myself because this $hit is scary and could kill me BUT 2) Well if the other 400+ people posted that they were fine after a day of be poisoned hey this stuff isn't all that bad.

In REALITY its this second opinion that scares me to the bone, the guy who orally inhaled the toxin was on corticosteroids for over 5 months after the incident and he still wasn't getting better. You don't get poisoned by this stuff and wake up the next day right as rain, its the second most toxin non peptide substance on the planet.

To give you an idea, the MOST venomous snake toxin on the planet belongs to the sea snake Hydrophis Belcheri, its LD50 is 0.025 mg/kg. Palytoxin is about 80X more toxic than this (LD50 of 0.0003 mg/ kg), one gram of the substance can kill approximately 170 Million mice.

OP in no way am I down playing your situation, I just find it difficult to believe as I'm an overly skeptical duch3 bag .

Originally Posted by jason604

Zoas containing palytoxin is more than real. Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong. There are a few Marine species that contain it and not only are they corals. They are also contained in some types of anemone and even a crab that's called(demania reynaudii). There's been documents of a person eating this crab and died of palytoxin poisoning. So this is type of toxin in zoas is more than just real and no chances should be made that(oooh my zoas are not poisonous and I don't need to be careful)

What your talking about is the act of bio-accumulation, some creatures are resistant to these toxins and actually ingest them to protect themselves. The rest of your statement perplexes me though, would you be so kind to post the source for this information.

Believe it or not but its not a certain type of zoas that contain palytoxin but it depends on each head/polyp. Most head of a colony or whatever size do not contain the toxin but it may be just 1 or 2 head within that group that may contain palytoxin. And the comment that "paly"toxin only Is in palys is totally wrong

I've posted a peer reviewed journal article which says otherwise, I would love to read your article though.

Originally Posted by toytech

I think the real moral of the story is don't drink the water ! Corals produce all kinds of things when ticked off and the last thing you want to do is ingest them . They have other toxins that you can have a reaction too and its not just zoas and palys .

^ Thank you, this is a statement I can really agree with.

[reefwars]

funny we posted the same article lol

[Zoaelite]

At the same time, about the same thing .

VOOOODOOO MAGIC!

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Brought you back from the dead did I ?
I'm just very frustrated because I continuously see every Joe Blow and their dog posting how they almost just died from touching a coral that in reality doesn't contain the toxin they are so claiming. I'm a scientist, I have a tough time accepting things without some sort of proof. Please take a read through the PLOS article I posted, the conclusion is very relevant to your opinion at the moment.

nope Ive always been here lurking

I DID read the article and in his conclusions he clearly says, some species are highly toxic, some species are weakly toxic and some species are not toxic at all....to me I dont really care how many thousands of mice zoa or paly X could kill,....I care about the well being of my fellow reefers (hence the reason I started the "Marine Aquarium Cautions" thread) and to me, being a LFS employee for 5 years, that means just giving a broad spectrum warning to people about ALL zoanthids.... I couldnt tell anyone with 100% certainty which may or may not contain deadly level of the toxin so I will not accept the responsibility of claiming that I do know....thats what irked me about your statement....you have basically said that the zoas that the OP posted pics of "do not contain the toxin".... do you know with 100% certainty that this is true?....because thats a lot of responsibility for a statement that hundreds of people will read.....

[jason604]

Originally Posted by fishytime

nope Ive always been here lurking

I DID read the article and in his conclusions he clearly says, some species are highly toxic, some species are weakly toxic and some species are not toxic at all....to me I dont really care how many thousands of mice zoa or paly X could kill,....I care about the well being of my fellow reefers (hence the reason I started the "Marine Aquarium Cautions" thread) and to me, being a LFS employee for 5 years, that means just giving a broad spectrum warning to people about ALL zoanthids.... I couldnt tell anyone with 100% certainty which may or may not contain deadly level of the toxin so I will not accept the responsibility of claiming that I do know....thats what irked me about your statement....you have basically said that the zoas that the OP posted pics of "do not contain the toxin".... do you know with 100% certainty that this is true?....because thats a lot of responsibility for a statement that hundreds of people will read.....

+1

[canadianbudz604]

Many doctors here in the lower mainland are not very good. Most of them want you in and out as fast as possible no matter what. This could be the reason why they didnt take more care of Jason604. They aren't basement doctors though. Just money hungry with a phd. I'm no scientist but all this stuff that comes out of the ocean could contain poisons or toxins or something that certain people react to differently. Jason604 ur not the first person to get sick from zoas, so obviously they have something in them that makes certain people sick. Maybe not all of them. But some do. Danielle3d, I too get a "sting?" From frogspawns. But I watch my brother move all sorts of stuff and no problems. Jason604 I guess you will be wearing gloves next time huh?

[11purewater]

OP are you able to get a reaction from just smelling the tank water or handling live rock or other corals,(sneezing or rash).Those zoa's have been readily available for many years and have been handled by the vendor and customers alike without issue.some people have a hypersensitivety to salt water tanks and it's residents no matter what, unfortunately ,and you may be one of them.

[jason604]

Originally Posted by 11purewater

OP are you able to get a reaction from just smelling the tank water or handling live rock or other corals,(sneezing or rash).Those zoa's have been readily available for many years and have been handled by the vendor and customers alike without issue.some people have a hypersensitivety to salt water tanks and it's residents no matter what, unfortunately ,and you may be one of them.

Nope I'm perfectly fine with saltwater. I actually drank quite a bit while acclimating for the first time n I was fine just a long salty after taste lol. I touched the water in my tank all the time with no gloves. The zoa incident I had was without touching anything else but the zoas with tiny bit of the water in its bag directly with my gloves then touch the tip of the tubing I used to acclimate n put my mouth stupidly on it.

[11purewater]

I hope it was a one off event,only one way too find out!get the antihistamines ready,and quit drinking the tank water!There's some nasty things happening in there when the light go out!

[daniella3d]

No gloves for me I just put cortisone cream and be done with it. It takes a few days and it's gone. I would not be able to use gloves as my aquarium is 24" deep and most of the time I get water all the way to my armpit. I would need a space suit.

Thing is when I first got into contact with poison oak I was full of pimples and was going nuts with the itch. Second time there was nearly nothing...third time only one pimple, and now nothing. With the aquarium I hope it's going to be the same thing and go away with time.

I do beleive that most of the palytoxin stories that we hear in these forums are actually allergic reaction to something else in the aquarium, especially when people read about palytoxin and they manipulate those corals knowing about it still and then start to feel the symptoms.

Originally Posted by canadianbudz604

mainland Danielle3d, I too get a "sting?" From frogspawns. But I watch my brother move all sorts of stuff and no problems. Jason604 I guess you will be wearing gloves next time huh?