Quarantine Poll

[Bob I]

Originally Posted by EmilyB

Bob (and other skimmerless, sumpless people trying to keep larger fish), you have to do something about oxygenation in your tank. A ripple on the surface just won't do it. Sorry, but I know this to be true.

The fish in question was quite small. It was returned to the LFS after introducing disease into my tank, and because it looked quite out of place in my tank. I most certainly will not continue an oxygenation/skimming discussion, as it is totally out of place in this thread. Nor do I appreciate non ending slurs, digs, and cracks about my methods. Fun is fun, but mean sprited remarks are not.

[Samw]

Hi. Please, don't take this as an argument. I am just going to talk about my tank and my experience. Most of the fish that died in my tank before I used a skimmer died from ick. That's why I started using chemicals like Kick-Ich, Rally, RXP, garlic, etc. None worked and fish kept getting ick and dying within a month. It wasn't until I added a skimmer that the fish stopped dying though the ick remained. The only thing that changed was the addition of an aerating device (skimmer). I have pictures of fish with ick and it isn't pretty. But with the skimmer, the fish survived and fought it off on its own (not surprising since ick affects the respiratory system I've read). Seth came over last night and mentioned why does my fish have ick spots on them and I told him that I've always had it and can't get rid of it completely. I told him that I've had those fish forever and ick is harmless. Moo even got ick after I introduced her to the tank. Yes, Ick can kill in certain conditions, but fish should be able to fight it off in normal conditions, even impossible-to-keep ones. So this is my experience with diseases in my tank and it works for me in my tank under Vancouver conditions.

As for quarantining, I don't because I only have a small tank and isn't worth it to set a Q tank up and I have no space.

[Bob I]

This too is not an argument, but an attempt to clear up what I believe are misconceptions. To begin with running bubbles through water does not add oxygen to the water. Gas exchange only happens at the water surface in a very thin layer where water meets the air. The more you disturb this layer, the more you will add oxygen. In the ocean the waves breaking can cause supersaturation. Something that will not happen in our tanks, but disturbing the surface layer as much as you can will greatly enhance gas exchange. In a skimmer there is very little disturbance of the water to air layer, and it is contained in a small area. Therefore it is my contention that a skimmer cannot function as an aerating device. It is unfortunate that I have seen this argument confirmed, but I can't remember where. However, if someone is able to refute what I believe is a scientific fact, I will happily take it back.

[Aquattro]

Bob, I believe O2 goes in by itself quite easily once CO2 is dispelled. The skimmer does an excellent job of agitating the water that flows through it, and I believe this does in fact provide for a higher O2 level than if a skimmer was not used.
Good ciculation in a tank with the sufficient surface agitation could provide the same amount of CO2 off-gassing, but this would require a lot of water movement.
Ultimately there is a maximum and saying that a skimmed tank will always be higher in O2 is certainly not true. A skimmer will not supersaturate O2 in to solution. It does provide an easy way to remove CO2 though.
So, required? No. Helpful in this task? I believe so. Again, so supporting research, but the logic is sound.

[AI Man]

I quarantine for 2-3 weeks before I put my fish into our retail tanks for sale. They are tested and tracked everyday. I re-assess treatment daily. Large water changes are a big part of my treatment regime, although costly 20-30% daily water changes have a significant effect on the fishes health. As I also use bacterial disturbing medications it helps to eradicate Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate spikes.
I also use Hyposalinity and various combinations of Copper sulfate, Methylene blue, Malachite green, and Formaldehyde. It depends on what I'm dealing with. I also use freshwater dips, and medicated dips as well. I'll admit I occasionally see diseases that are unresponsive to my efforts.

Seeing various diseases that can come from wild caught fish. I think it is very risky and surprising that more people don't quarantine.
It seems that sometimes stress induced disease outbreaks take 3-5 days to appear. In most stores the fish is sold and in your tank by then, not to mention with the additional stress of recapture and acclimatizing to your aquarium.

I will also say that many disease outbreaks are certainly hobbyist induced by poor handling, poor acclimatization, bad water quality, and non compatible tankmates.
I can't count the amount of times I've had a fish in quarantine for 2 weeks, then in our retail systems for weeks to even months and a customer takes it home and it dies within a few weeks(sometimes days). I can confidently say that the hobbyist is responsible for the unfortunate demise of the fish. When I ask them about their tank their answer is almost always that everything is "fine". I wish I could say it but my response in my head is usually "well obviously not". Now sometimes we are able to source the problem with water tests and discussing their tank and husbandry techniques.

Nobody is perfect and sometimes fish go into shock, or have weak immune systems, but I think this would only account for a very small percentage. The fish had to be pretty tough to get to the retailers tanks in the first place.

I guess my point is that I think a 10 or 20 gallon quarantine aquarium should be in every serious aquarists fish room. Sure most times you can get away without it, but when you finally get hit with disease, you would gladly turn back time if you could. People say but I can't afford not to. My response is look at the price of medication and lost fish. Plus as Quagmire stated a quarantine tank gives your new fish a chance to settle and fatten up before having to compete with more established tank mates.

I also notice people don't tend to make a big deal of their aquarium failures. They talk about all the fish they have kept and omit from memory the ones that didn't make it. Or they say "But he had (insert excuse)".

My point is that I think everyone should quarantine regardless if the store they buy from does or not. At very least a fresh water dip or medicated dip prior to addition to the main aquarium.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by AI Man

I will also say that many disease outbreaks are certainly hobbyist induced by poor handling, poor acclimatization, bad water quality, and non compatible tankmates.
I can't count the amount of times I've had a fish in quarantine for 2 weeks, then in our retail systems for weeks to even months and a customer takes it home and it dies within a few weeks(sometimes days). I can confidently say that the hobbyist is responsible for the unfortunate demise of the fish. When I ask them about their tank their answer is almost always that everything is "fine". I wish I could say it but my response in my head is usually "well obviously not".

Here's a question. I agree when a healthy fish has been in a store for many weeks and months and then dies within a few days in the customer's tank that there's a possibility that its the conditions of the customer's tank that is questionable. But in that case, I don't think a quarantine tank would have helped. Is it for sure that a bare Q Tank is less stressful to the new fish than an established reef?

[Samw]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

Bob, I believe O2 goes in by itself quite easily once CO2 is dispelled. The skimmer does an excellent job of agitating the water that flows through it, and I believe this does in fact provide for a higher O2 level than if a skimmer was not used.
Good ciculation in a tank with the sufficient surface agitation could provide the same amount of CO2 off-gassing, but this would require a lot of water movement.
Ultimately there is a maximum and saying that a skimmed tank will always be higher in O2 is certainly not true. A skimmer will not supersaturate O2 in to solution. It does provide an easy way to remove CO2 though.
So, required? No. Helpful in this task? I believe so. Again, so supporting research, but the logic is sound.

I agree with you Brad. You would need a lot of surface agitation like running a powerhead with a venturi device. Unfortunately, to get that agitation would mean a lot of salt all around my tank. The skimmer does that for me without the salt spray. If I turn off my skimmer now and just leave the powerheads on (with lots of surface ripples), I can almost guarantee the death of some of my fish (not all) within a month. Should I try it as an experiment and see if I can reproduce the same result as I did last time?

[AI Man]

SAMW
Well I do think the reef in some ways would be less stressful and certainly more natural, but at what cost to it's currently healthy inhabitants?

Dead, live rock or even PVC pipes can provide a habitat for fish during quarantine. As well as a dimly lit tank to calm them as they get used to captivity.

This environment (bare tank) couldn't be too bad otherwise clownfish would not feel comfortable enough to spawn in bare tanks with a plant pot. I think water quality is the most important factor over aesthetic surroundings.

Many fish are shy feeders at first and would fail to compete in a tank full of existing fish.
I don't understand why you feel it wouldn't help? Hopefully the conditions in a quarantine tank are smaller and maybe a little more easily adjusted.
I often see tanks were existing fish have adjusted over time to poor conditions, and newly added fish are shocked.
The main reason is medication and water changes are more practical in a small aquarium. Also Medications that are not reef safe can be used, medications and medicated food can more accurately be administered, There is no stressful aggression or territorial behaviour to further stress the fish.

[Samw]

James, I agree Q tanks can be helpful. I was just replying to your point about a heathy fish from a store dying at the customer's tank. If the customer isn't keeping the right conditions for his reef in the first place, then putting the healthy fish in a Q-Tank isn't going to help either since after it goes out of the Q-Tank and into his reef, it'll die anyways. I'm just questioning how putting a healthy fish in a Q-Tank will help in this particular case since you used this as one of the reasons for a Q-Tank. I don't disagree with your other points.

Let me put it another way. If the customer's main tank is the real problem, then putting the fish from your store into his reef isn't much different than putting the fish from the Q Tank into his reef. The extra step of acclimating it to another system first isn't going to save that fish.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Bob_I

To begin with running bubbles through water does not add oxygen to the water. Gas exchange only happens at the water surface in a very thin layer where water meets the air.

Bob you just contradicted your self. around every bubble is a water surface where gas exchange can take place. the reason a skimmer works very good in adding O2 to the water is 2 fold, 1 it creates a large disturbance which aids in driving off C02 and 2, it creats a extreamly large surface area (all the surfaces around the bubbles) to adsorbe the O2.

now if you want to compare the efficiencey of large bubbles to small bubbles the smaller ones win hands down thats why the old bubbling treasure chests we used to keep in our tanks were pour at adding O2 to the water.. they only did 1 large bubble every few seconds.

Steve