Brad! - Page 5

EmilyB · #41 07-28-2002, 02:10 AM

Quote:

I have read other articles where they say not to let your tank exceed 82 degrees with clams. I know mine did in this heat wave..

Can you please share those Darren, that is really interesting.

DJ88 · #42 07-28-2002, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Florida to by a bacterial in Vibrio strain

Well luckily I happened into a conversation with a Dr who studies Tridacnids.

Vibrio is present on all clams in nature.

I stated this in one of my first posts.

Quote:

(and of distrubters losing up to 200 in one shot

Where? Been following most threads.. 200?

Quote:

have seen on the island here that water temps can change by 20 degrees with the tide, whare we go camping the water is at about 78 degrees for about 2 hours after the tide comes in.

In an intertidal zone right? In a location on earth not even similar to a reef. On a reef a .5 degree change over MONTH is a big thing. It causes mass bleachings. 20 degrees on a reef would WIPE out the whole reef. If .5 degrees can cause a documented bleaching of a reef on a small island what would 2 degrees do? I'll dig up the paper I was reading a while ago about documented bleachings. Maybe then people will see that temperature swings are NOT normal on a reef.

Quote:

Sprung and Delbeck are recommended the tetracycline family of antibiotics for this problem

They are basing this on their experiences keeping and working with fish I am betting. Till a specialist in Tridacnids gets in on this with proof it is more than just stress causing one clam to go and then fouling a tank taking others with it, I won't jump on a bandwagon creted by a hobbyiest like myself. I almost did.. I really wanted to believe it was someone elses fault. Place blame. But when it comes down to it the blame has to be shared with everyone. including the owner. How is it that not all of those clams shipped to J&L have died? Why isn't there an even greater outcry than a few reefkeepers on a forum talking about some clams dying. The number of people that are actually in this hobby that are on that forum are miniscule in comparison to the numbers out there in this hobby. If it wasn't true how is it that so many people are constantly joining the boards that already have a tank up and running? Or have been in tho hobby for years? I met a family from the valley today that have been at this for years, the last time in another gentleman who has bee at this for almost ten years. Never been on a board. They never even heard of Canreef, Reefs.org or Reef Central. Because it is said on a forum doesn't mean it is gospel. Take it for what it is.. Someone typing some words to pass on what they have seen or heard. Take it with a grain of salt. Like you should my posts.. like all posts. I do now.. big time. Beginning to see some of the futility in going on a board. lol.

If it is a virus.. why didn't my other bivavles in my tank croak as well.. my oyster I have had for two years plus is still going fine as are the mussel and clam I have on other rocks in my tank?
Just looked at them.. poked them with a feeding stick.. they are still alive and well.

Quote:

The answer is in racing pigeon care.

really. Pigeon care is the answer.. lol. my giggle for the day. :D Sorry but that is hilarious.

My point of this all is, one guy tossing a random drug into his tank and having one clam survive isn't proof. Far from it. Was there any actual documented evidence there is a bacterium? Virus whatever? no. Did he test the clam prior to medicating? no. did he test the clam post medicating? no. Did he test the "infected" tank? no. Did he test the "clean" tank? no., did he test the deceased clams? no. Did he test his water prior to adding the new clams? no. That is a whole lot of no's. Too many for me to say that he has proof that this pigeon drug is the cure.

Quote:

I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called Global Pigeon Supplies that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. Since I ordered today and had it sent to my work, I'll probably get it on Wednesday. "

I bet they would burst out laughing if they knew what the sudden rush was on selling pigeon drugs was due to. A bunch of un-informed hobbyests diagnosing a problem themselves.

Quote:

Steve Tyree and Charles Delbeek calling it a bacterial infection..

Based on what? If I said I have a miracle cure for this would you call me to buy it? What testing have they done to verify that there is a virus??? Looking at a tank and making and assumption does one thing. It makes an A$$ out of U and ME

Quote:

but I don't see how you can go with your heat theory with all the evadence

What evidence????? There is no factual proof other than a bunch of clams dying. Nothing more.
Can't you see that?

All that has been shown is that clams are dying. When they go they exhibit exactly what Daniel Knop described as symptoms that were shown when somones clam died after a water change. Mucus, spewing clouds of white stuff(sperm), lack of responsiveness to light stimuli, not closing properly. Sound familiar? It sure did when I read it. Added to my conviction that this isn't a virus but is a bunch of deaths occuring at the same time. What has caused it? who knows.. but in reading how delicate clams are, how to propely handle them when taking them out of a bag or moving them etc etc. Heck I did the moving thing wrong. Many times. Did you know you should never lift a clam up out of the water with it's byssal glad down and it's opening facing up? I didn't. Causes damage to its internal organs due to the waer still contained inside it. That is why they squirt out the water. To releive the sudden pressure chage. Now that i think about it I did it about once a week in an effort to get the bryopsis that was growing on them off. And the derasa was not showing good extension or reaction to light as I should have checked when I bought it. So in effect I will believe that those were the causes for the demise of my clams in addition to the three to four degree temperature fluctuations I have. In a multi clam tank all it takes is for one clam to begin spewing sperm as it is dying and the others will follow suit. This will foul the water very quickly. Cause stress, and if the clams are already weak it may be enough of a trigger to kill them all. That one clam that was saved due to the drugs.. Was it not moved to a different tank? After all the other clams in the tank had reelased sperm? Could this have fouled hte water enough to cause sickness? Maybe? possibly? I'd lay money there personally.

As far as water carrying the "virus"... I was in J&L today.. looking at the clam tank. If there is any clams that would be succeptable to getting sick it would be very small ones. The weak and food requiring ones right? They have had about a half dozen in there for the last few weeks. Not every clam that came in that shipment died.... Heck there is two nice big derasas in there if I remeber right. They look WONDERFUL! I even contemplated buying one. Fully responsive to light and movement. Great color. Great mantle. But I won't until I can say my tank temperatures are stable.

It all comes down to optimal environment. I know now I didn't have one. I didn't like seeing temp swings before. After some of the things on bleaching in corals I have seen. I don't want any again.

I am done.. this is getting too funny..

pigeon medicine.. ROFL!

nite.

[ 27 July 2002, 22:27: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

DJ88 · #43 07-28-2002, 02:48 AM

Here is a VERY interesting article on clams. I'll post it and the link to it as well.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...ll/default.asp

Here are a bunch of articles that I highly recommend everyone wanting or owning clams to read.

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquariu...alf_Shell.html

Gamete Release by Giant Clams in Aquaria

Giant clams have often been observed to release egg cells and sperm in aquaria. This is undoubtedly an interesting event because gamete release is a common occurrence that normally involves several clam individuals. Under natural conditions, this enables the clams to exchange their genetic material to produce offspring with good environmental adaptations.
But, aside from being fascinating, gamete release in the confines of our aquaria sometimes brings problems for the aquarist by causing a drastic decrease in water quality, which can be a threat to other tank inhabitants. It can cause disaster among fish and invertebrates and even among the clams themselves. It is therefore important for the aquarist to pay scrupulous attention to the water quality and take some counter measures listed below whenever necessary.

Some frequently asked questions about this topic are: What triggers gamete release in clams in an aquarium? Why do many clams in a reef tank join in? Is it true that clams used to die after gamete release? Is it harmful for the fish to feed on the egg cells? What can I do to prevent the water quality from deteriorating after gamete release?

What triggers gamete release in aquaria?

As with other creatures, gamete release serves to maintain the species. Under good conditions in nature, this normally depends on the presence of mature egg cells in the gonadal tissues of at least one adult clam within the clam colony. This clam will start releasing its gametes and simultaneously release a hormone-like substance to inform other giant clams about the event. Because the giant clams are simultaneous hermaphrodites, they can produce sperm and egg cells at the same time, provided they are fully mature. Many of the other colony-mates will detect the “biochemical message” and join the spawning event.

Because clams reach their male maturity at a relatively young age and small shell size, a clam colony always includes many more sperm-producing clams than those that produce eggs. Therefore, most of the milky clouds that arise from the little excurrent syphons of a clam consist of sperm. As mentioned above, this is how it all starts under good conditions in nature. But sometimes, giant clams also spawn sperm and eggs after rapid changes of environmental conditions or after strong environmental stress. This can be due to overheating from sunlight when the clams become dry during ebb tide, exposure to freshwater during a strong rain at ebb tide or other environmental changes that make the survival of the clam colony questionable. In this case, the clams sometimes react to the irritation by spontaneously releasing gametes. This is meant to ensure the survival of the colony and the species in case the clams die because of the environmental stress. They release egg cells and sperm to produce larvae that can settle near the colony or elsewhere and grow to adult clams, thus forming a new clam generation.

In the artificial breeding of clams, this strategy can even help make the clams spawn egg cells (Knop 1996). The clams are placed in the sun for 20 or 30 minutes, sometimes even longer, imitating an ebb tide on a hot summer day. If one of the clams has mature egg cells, it is likely they will be released when the clam is placed back in the water. The spawning of clams after events of stress has proven to be a successful strategy, at least under natural conditions. However, we have frequently observed problems with this strategy when importing clams from a hatchery. Out of a hundred clams, most of the time there will be one or two clams that are irritated due to transportation stress. They will release gametes as soon as they are put into the water. This normally triggers gamete release in many other clams, and after a short period of time, the stocking tank looks like a giant glass of milk. This causes additional stress for the clams, which is quite unfortunate right after the stress of transport.

This situation is also often observed in reef aquaria. Small environmental changes in the aquarium can trigger a clam to release egg cells or sperm. This may be caused by heat stress during summer, using freshwater to top off the tank from evaporation or doing a partial water change. Soon other giant clams in that tank will join the spawning event and the tank water will become turbid.

In other cases, the environmental conditions in the aquarium did not change at all prior to the spawning event. In those cases, it is likely that one of the clams did not adapt to the captive environment and was about to die for whatever reason — perhaps insufficient illumination, bad water quality, harassement of fishes — among other reasons. Before dying, this clam expelled sperm and/or egg cells. If this clam should eventually die, the unexperienced aquarist may come to the opinion that it died because of gamete release, while the truth is just the other way around: it has released gametes because of the nearing of death.

Generally, many fish that are commonly kept in the tank with the clams will be very happy about the egg cells. They feed on them like crazy, especially the smaller planctivorous fishes, such as several Anthias or Chromis species. Unlike the egg cells released by some fish species that are known to be poisonous, like the eggs of the scooter blenny (Synchiropus ocellatus), tridacnid clam eggs are a harmless food for aquarium fish. But this joy is not long lasting, because soon the gametes start to die. Because the egg cells and sperm have all been exposed to the water for about the same period of time, many of these die more or less simultaneously. This causes the water to become polluted and there is a remarkable decrease in oxygen. Under good aquarium conditions, this does not necessarily pose a threat for the reef tank community, but this is strongly dependent on the amount of water, equipment such as protein skimmers or filtration with granular activated carbon, as well as other factors like the water conditions or the number and size of fish kept in the tank. Another important factor is the number and size of clams that have released gametes.
It is impossible to give an estimate about the risk of damage for the tank inhabitants. In every case of a giant clam spawning, the aquarist should be prepared to take some countermeasures in order to prevent the aquarium community from being harmed. Here are a few things you can do to minimize the risk:

1) If the large size of the clam expelling gametes makes you worried about the water conditions (e.g., an adult T. squamosa with a 40-centimeter [15-inch] long shell in a relatively small tank) try to transfer the clam into another tank or a pail or bucket during spawning. Fill the bucket with aquarium water and place the clam in there until the gamete release has stopped. It is a good idea to change the water in this bucket once or twice if gamete release takes a long period of time. Also, you should monitor the water temperature and provide water circulation, preferably with an airstone fed by an air pump. The water taken out of your tank will be replaced by new artificial seawater. Once the clam has finished gamete release, place it back in the display tank in the same location it was before the event.

2) The same thing is advisable if gamete release takes place in a dealer’s clam stocking tank. This is especially important directly after the importation of clams, because the clams have been weakened during transportation and further stress caused by decreasing water conditions can be harmful to the mollusks. If one of the clams starts expelling sperm or egg cells after being introduced to the stocking tank, remove it as soon as you notice it. If other clams join in, also remove those from the stocking tank and place them in a separate container, while providing the conditions mentioned above (water temperature, aeration). This can prevent the stocking tank’s water conditions from deteriorating. After my experiences with newly imported clams of several species and sizes, the risk of having a gamete release is relatively big. When importing 500 clams at a time and placing them in five stocking tanks with 100 clams in each tank, most of the time we experience a spawning event in at least one of the tanks, sometimes even in two tanks. With clams of various sizes, the number of clams joining the gamete release will mostly be around five to 20 individuals per stocking tank. Transfering the spawning clams to different containers during gamete release enables you to leave the other clams alone without a further change of the aquarium conditions.

3) If you have a huge clam spawning in a relatively small tank and you cannot remove the clam, there is a simple way to syphon out the gametes before they can spread in the tank. What you will need for this is a funnel, a flexible tube and a pail. Connect the tube to the funnel and place the end of the tube in the pail. Now hold the funnel over the spawning clam and suck at the end of the tube in order to create a water flow down to the pail. Once the water is flowing, stop the flow by pressing the tube. Once you see the clam filling its excurrent chamber with water in order to blow gametes through the excurrent syphon, open the tube. The funnel will collect most of the gametes and transport them into the bucket.

4) When you observe giant clams spawning in your tank, make sure you have enough supply of fresh saltwater to perform a partial water exchange of 10 to 20 percent of the tank volume. This may not be necessary, but you should be prepared for it. (This is also important when corals spawn in a closed tank system. Experiences of aquarists have shown that the water pollution and decrease of water quality seems to be similar to the clam spawning.)

5) Add an extra portion of activated carbon to the system.

6) Make sure the protein skimmer is working well.

7) Install cotton media to the filter. This filter material has the advantage of having floating particles adhere to it due to its static charge, which can be helpful to free the water of fine floating matter. But to achive this, the water flow should be relatively slow. It is best to let the water pass through the cotton just by gravity and not be forced by the suction or blowing force of a water pump. Take a plastic cup, perforate it ia number of times and locate it on top of the aquarium. Direct the water flow coming from a small pump, a proteing skimmer or some other device in a way that lets it pass through the cup (and filter cotton) by gravity flow and then run back into the aquarium. You can increase the effectiveness of this filtration method by passing the water through an ultraviolet sterilizer prior to the filter cotton.

8) In case the fish start to breathe heavily, do a partial water change of 10 to 20 percent.

9) After the spawning event is over, you should check the condition of all clams in case one of the clams started the spawning event prior to its own death. If the clam has have died and the soft tissues start to decompose overnight, this will lead to a further decrease in water quality and it might give you an undesireable surprise next morning. If you are doubtful about the condition of the clam, and if the incurrent syphon is gaping and it does not show a reaction to touching the syphonal mantle, remove it for a day and put it into a separate tank (with aquarium water and aeration). This does not necessarily mean it will die. I have seen many clams extremely stressed by spawning activity that were “gaping” and showing no mantle retraction when touched. After a day or two everything went back to normal. But, if the tank system is small, it may be better to be on the safe side and set the clam aside for the coming night if you are doubtful about its condition.

StirCrazy · #44 07-28-2002, 03:04 AM

Darren there are several mentions of "This can be due to overheating from sunlight when the clams become dry during ebb tide" which would seam to sugest that clams are found in intertidal zones .. contrary to what you posted in your last post.. so it looks like temp changes can be a regualr part of clam life but the danger is when they dry out a little to much (sounds like it is right out of the water to me)

Steve

DJ88 · #45 07-28-2002, 03:18 AM

Fine Steve you win,

Your experience with clams is far and above mine.

Buy your pigeon medicine for the clams you might by in the future. Enjoy and good luck.

The fact that when this happens clams seem to natrually respond by releasing sperm and gametes means nothing at all.

I am done..

Enjoy your tank.

StirCrazy · #46 07-28-2002, 03:38 AM

see, everytime I try figure out what you are getting at you get all pi$$y like this.. which is the reason I usaly don't respond to your posts like this.. yes it does triger spawning.. I have read evey link you posted.. and as far as temp changes there is only one type of clam that is listed as being sensitive to "sudden tempature changes" and that is T. gigas. there was another one whare they didn't mention how it reacted to temp changes but the others were fine unless it is "sudden" now the question is how do you defind "sudden" .

now as for the personal shots at me.. I never claimed to be a expert in clams but I can read just as good as you can. and sence I read everything you posted unless you are holding out some mirical info I think that statment was just made because you have woren yourself out with your essay posts :D ..

about the pidgeon medicen.. I do not say that that is the way to go.. I merialy posted the post in its entirity so I woulden't miss anything.. the fact is that the point of that post was about a bacterial infection that seams to be the general consensus among most of the reefing comunity.. no one claimed you were wrong, they just wanted to see the links you were talking about that sugested that this was all a temp change problem. everyone is looking for answers to this problem..

ahh what the hell mabe we should just go back to the UFO/alien theory.. would be just about as constructive. :rolleyes:

Steve

[ 27 July 2002, 23:42: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

Troy F · #47 07-28-2002, 02:25 PM

This isn't the first year it's gotten warm out in the summer. This is the first time I've ever seen this many clams wiped out. You can do the math.

Is it possible that a new shipment of clams carried a pre-exsisting bacterial pathogen that was able to multiply to critical levels due to the higher temps thus causing the deaths?

Troy F · #48 07-28-2002, 07:28 PM

Brad, I'm aware of the increased rates of metabolism and reproduction. At lower temps maybe the host organism is able to fight off the infection. Kind of like eating ice cream on a hot day versus a cold day [img]smile.gif[/img] , on a day like today I can leave my bowl of neopolitan ice cream sitting on the desk while I type this but if it were warmer out I wouldn't have the time. :D I'm just throwing some thoughts around.

Aquattro · #49 07-28-2002, 08:49 PM

Troy, don't EVER feed ice cream to clams, even on hot days!!! :D

Aquattro · #50 07-29-2002, 04:00 AM

Troy, warmer temps will increase the metabolism of bacterium and can speed up the process, but the bacteria still would have grown to the same levels at any (reasonable) temp over time.