Water changes

[ReefOcean]

Originally Posted by Lampshade

You forgot turnover rate, sump size, return size and many other reefing "guidelines" we live by :P

My bad. The list goes on

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by MarkoD

i troll because i refuse to be talked down to by someone with more posts and more "experience". i dont care if i have to be the bad guy. that chitons topic for POTM was stupid, and i have no problem say it

You refuse perfectly good advice, because you're stubborn. And I think the Chiton thing was awesome, Denny is gonna win with a great photo. Now stop hijacking this thread, whatever it's about now

Levi, go open a troll thread in the lounge or something.

[ReefOcean]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

For one, it's cost prohibitive. Two, you have to dismantle your tank. but yes, you probably should change rock every 5 years or so, should you actully keep a tank going that long.

Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.

[tim the toolman]

I am very new to this hobby (just over a year) so I definitely do not think I am superior nor do I think you are lazy. I just find these circular logic type threads amusing is all. So I will tag along And add my 2 cents as I feel. Not to be argumentative but because I think this site is a wealth of knowledge and information but it can also be a fun way to do a little fish geeking.

[MarkoD]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Well said. Yes, a tank can be kept without doing water changes. For how long, I'm not sure. Most people don't keep their tank long enough to prove either way. I compare it to feeding my dog. I can feed Purina crap, or a real meat diet. It's well documented that dogs fed real food (or people for that matter) live longer more vigorous lives. I believe the same applies to my reef. If I want an amazing reef, I need to be an amazing reefkeeper, which to me holds certain standards (like changing water). I believe my reef will be amazing for many years because of it.
In all honesty, I don't care who changes water or who doesn't. Someone asked, seeking validation to not do something, I offered my thoughts to hopefully help them make decision. I believe they will have a better reef, for longer, by doing partial and frequent water changes. They can choose to do it or not. If not, no skin off my butt.
But....be honest about why you don't want to change it. Don't make up stuff to validate or hide the fact that you just don't want to expend the effort, or the money for salt. Other than that, I cannot think of any reason why one would not do water changes.

i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)

for me to do a substantial waterchange (50 gallons):

i would have to find a 50 gallon container, wait 24 hours for the RO/DI to fill it up, mix the salt (which i have 1000 gallons worth from boxing day), wait for it to mix.

Then remove everything from my sump, vacuum the detritus, pump out the water.

Then pump the fresh water in, allow the temp to match the water in the display and then turn on the pumps again.

honestly this could take a couple hours. i work a full time job, i run a business, i photograph all nhl home games. on nights when theres a game i leave my house at 8am, work all day at my job, then go straight to the arena to setup for the game and i wont be home till 11:30pm

and on the nights when i do come home at 4 and i have nothing else, i would usually like to hang out with my girlfriend over doing water changes.

[ReefOcean]

So getting off topic here, let's rehash

My point is that if operate your aquarium in a manner where bioload can be efficiently dealt with, water changes can be suspended for months at a time. In an ideal situation (and it has been done) you can suspend water changes for perhaps years.

We pretty much have established a need for dosing but besides that, I have seen no meaningful rebuttals. Except for the fact I am lazy and wrong.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by ReefOcean

I still don't see how it is lazy. Because you label it as such?

And true, I have asked for help. Aquattro has giving me advice many times on this forum that i have used and i appreciate it. But that doesn't mean there arent alternatives to look at. It doesn't make you guys my superiors.

Sorry if that's the tone you're reading, it's not my intention. I'm certainly no smarter or wiser than you, maybe I've been doing this a bit longer, but that's it. It's difficult to discuss this in a thread environment, it would be better at the pub where we could yell and stuff
There are lots of alternatives to many things, I just believe closed systems have a finite lifespan, and water changes prolong that life. But as I said, most reefers don't keep their tanks setup for that lifespan, so we can't prove this either way.
For me, my fish are my pets. My corals are a huge investment in time and money, and I want to do the very best to keep them as vigorous as I possibly can. I feel I do this best by changing water often. People come to my house and say "wow" a lot, so I figure it's working. But if you're reef is fine, then so be it. It will still probably live longer than you're going to keep it going anyway, statistically. But what I am suggesting is that your fine reef might be even finer if you changed water.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by ReefOcean

How is dumping a capful of dose into the tank once a month less practical than mixing and lugging around buckets of water?

Liek I said, it started off as a matter of being lazy (or very busy) but now it is a matter of "why?" Why do it if I don't have to.

Because you're only replenishing, what if a certain element isn't being used and you keep adding it, it will become a containment. Water changes not only replenish they also reduce the concentration is anything elevated above norm.

Like others have said it's up to the owner to decide what's best for them. Do some research away from unrepeatable sources claiming this and that and make a decision based on what your believe will produce the most success while keeping the efforts in your comfort zone.

Here's a general link worth reading:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[ReefOcean]

Originally Posted by MarkoD

i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)

Reasonably so. I have stated as well that I don't disagree with water changes. My point is under the right cicumstances, you don't need to that often.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by ReefOcean

Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.

Now you're just spouting off. Rock is known to accumulate nutrients over time, contributing to old tank syndrome, just like deep sand beds. I read it on the Internet.
Now it seems to me most, if not all of your questions have been answered, but you don't acknowledge them. We've been debating, and providing rebuttals to your comments (and poking doodles) all day long.