Sick fish....QT tanks and the headaches... how do you cope?

[daniella3d]

That's only true if you use copper (cupramine or other copper) but if you use formaline or Paraguard it's not toxic and liverock is good because there is no ammonia problem. Without liverock ammonia must be monitored twice per dans and water in large quantity must be ready at any time the ammonia start to rise. Ammonia at high PH is very toxic and only a small trace can kill fish. I suspect that those who fail and kill their fish in quarantine are not paying attention to ammonia.

Originally Posted by jostafew

and live rock in the QT, unless you don't mind throwing it out on a regular basis (can't clean it properly if needed).

[mike31154]

Originally Posted by Hustler

Now... In the QT i still keep live rock and sand right?
I have a heater and filters with no carbon....
Still trying to find the right treatment for this slime sluffing Im still guessing is clownfish desies.... weird they were fine for months till the powder got stressed though?

Best of luck with your treatment & sure hope you don't lose too much, but... seems to me looking at your tank build that it hasn't been up all that long & a lot of livestock was added in a short period of time (end of November 2011?). Correct me if I'm wrong, however if this is the case that will certainly have an impact on the health of your fish. Sure a 300 is a large tank & is probably more forgiving when adding livestock, but it's still best to take your time. Sorry I don't have any advice as to treatment & that's been pretty well covered so far in the thread. Again, hope things work out ok & the remaining livestock stays healthy.

[Myka]

Hustler, everyone looks good and eats well before they get H1N1 too.

Originally Posted by daniella3d

That's only true if you use copper (cupramine or other copper) but if you use formaline or Paraguard it's not toxic and liverock is good because there is no ammonia problem. Without liverock ammonia must be monitored twice per dans and water in large quantity must be ready at any time the ammonia start to rise.

Ammonia is easily and inexpensively controlled using AmQuel ($12 for a 1-5+ year supply depending how often you use it) or other ammonia detoxifiers. Ammonia is easily and accurately monitored using a SeaChem Ammonia Alert ($10 for a year). No need for large, expensive water changes.

Live rock can't be in a tank with copper because it will absorb the copper and make the treatment ineffective (not to mention ruin the rock). Not that I believe any fish should ever be treated with copper though.

[daniella3d]

Ok but be very carefull with any ammonia neutralizer because some will bind with Cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form. It is documented on the Seachem site.

Things like Prime only neutralize the ammonia for 24 hours so it must be taken out of the system by water change if there is no biological filtration or redosed on regular basis. It also affect the level of oxygen in the tank if the temperature is high.

Originally Posted by Myka

Ammonia is easily and inexpensively controlled using AmQuel ($12 for a 1-5+ year supply depending how often you use it) or other ammonia detoxifiers. Ammonia is easily and accurately monitored using a SeaChem Ammonia Alert ($10 for a year). No need for large, expensive water changes.

Live rock can't be in a tank with copper because it will absorb the copper and make the treatment ineffective (not to mention ruin the rock). Not that I believe any fish should ever be treated with copper though.

[Reef Pilot]

I feel really bad when I keep reading about this over and over with SW newbies. That's because I got sucked in, too, by some of the long time SW "experts" here who claim quarantine is not necessary, and garlic is the best remedy. And if your livestock still dies, well, you are just a bad fish keeper with stressing your fish, and your water quality must not be good enough. At least that is the implied message. Might be good for their egos, but sure doesn't help people who are new to SW.

I learned my lesson just over a year and now quarantine everything, incl corals. I did a lot more research outside of Canreef, and no doubt in my mind, that is the only safe practice with new livestock. As others have stated, though, be sure your QT is cycled, too, so you don't have any ammonia problems. I keep my 30 g QT running all the time, with a canister filter, so don't even need any live rock.

I do the hyposalinity routine and take a full 2 months and use that time also to get my fish feeding well, so they are strong and ready before going into my display tank. I have done this twice now, with 100% success rate.

I think the best advice for newbies should be to set up a QT. After many years, and once you become a SW "expert", then maybe you can get away without it, if you really know your fish, and exactly where they came from prior to your purchase. But the only really safe practice, IMO, is quarantine.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

Ok but be very carefull with any ammonia neutralizer because some will bind with Cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form. It is documented on the Seachem site.

Yes good point, this is just another reason to not use copper.

Originally Posted by daniella3d

Things like Prime only neutralize the ammonia for 24 hours so it must be taken out of the system by water change if there is no biological filtration or redosed on regular basis.

This is simply not correct, it needs to be redosed because there is more ammonia added to the tank via the fish pooping. I use these types of products everyday in high volume. I prefer to use AmQuel though because it is cheaper and strangely enough it is twice the concentration of Prime.

[daniella3d]

No sir I am right about this that Prime dissipate in about 24 hours:

from SEachem web site:

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html

"Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours"

That too has been well documented. I was quite surprised when I first learned about it. So what happen to the ammonia when it dissipate? Do they mean it's been consummed by the bacterias? and if there are no bacterias what happen after 24 hours? not quite sure.

Originally Posted by Myka

This is simply not correct, it needs to be redosed because there is more ammonia added to the tank via the fish pooping. I use these types of products everyday in high volume. I prefer to use AmQuel though because it is cheaper and strangely enough it is twice the concentration of Prime.

[Hustler]

Well my main issue that ive come across is when people say the fish should be added at the same time or they will fight.... But then say your adding too many fish at once... One by One they will fight and die... all together its too fast on the system??? ...
Ive got over 400lbs of fully cycled LR in there plus the monster skimmer and bio reactor... Its not the water...and other than the occational nipping i dont see where stress would come from?

[mike31154]

Comes down to that when adding livestock there's no simple or one size fits all solution in salt water. Don't know about fresh, never had a freshwater system. Such a variety of species available with salt water and with it variety of needs, it's hard to know when or how the best way to add them is. I made more than one error as well when starting my system, had a few losses due to not researching & impulse buys. Getting better though. Watching a few beautiful fish die has tempered my impatience.

[daniella3d]

Because parasites are there and they are living and multiplying, it does not mean that your fish absolutelly must be stressed for the parasites to colonize them.

Stress or no stress, eventually the parasites number will grow.

Originally Posted by Hustler

Well my main issue that ive come across is when people say the fish should be added at the same time or they will fight.... But then say your adding too many fish at once... One by One they will fight and die... all together its too fast on the system??? ...
Ive got over 400lbs of fully cycled LR in there plus the monster skimmer and bio reactor... Its not the water...and other than the occational nipping i dont see where stress would come from?