Wild Seahorses @ J&L??!!

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Don't forget a great majority of all collected fish die even before they reach your home.

Point well taken, even if a particular species is collected by a sustainable method, and notwithstanding the deaths of animals in our home aquaria due to ignorance.

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by UnderWorldAquatics

Please re-read my original comment, and then read your opening comment right below it....
thats what Im talking about, I am very well aware of the things going on in this industry as is Saltcreep, you on the other hand, as you have stated, have done some "quick" research and have jumped to conclusions without knowing the whole picture(this is done very frequently on boards such as this). I wouldnt expect you to know everything that goes on in this industry as you are a hobbiest, not dealing with the business end. Being in the business end I make a point of knowing as much as I can about whats going on in this industry, you could say it is detrimental for me to do so.... Instead of jumping into something that you dont have the whole picture of, it would be a good idea to ask someone that does know the whole picture as Saltcreep does, he hasnt done some quick reasearch, he has dedicated a large portion of his life to know what is going on, he is "in the know" Reading a few pages on the internet does not put you in the know. Please dont take offense as I think it is good that hobbiests like you are concerned about the welfare of our beloved marine life, but I think it would be wise to ask someone in the know, before jumping to conclusions... Look at Saltcreeps comments, he knows what he is talking about, Im not saying that you dont, Im saying people are making comments and passing acusations without haveing the whole picture. And Steve, what you said would be a dream come true, especially since the seahorses that are used in TCM have no medicinal value, traditional hokus pokus...

No offense to him, but Saltcreep is part of the industry. Therefore he may or may not have a biased view. Certainly he makes some good points.

My "quick research" could be referred to in academic communities as a literature synthesis, or secondary research. Certainly it was not as complete as one would like, and in fact is not a synthesis at all, since I only have one source, which as Bev has pointed out may not be particularly reputable. However my source has undoubtedly drawn their data from a wide variety of sources (a synthesis), and has participated in a great deal of field research and theorizing on the trade, something that I doubt any of us have done. As Saltcreep indicates, he is only now beginning to think about this area. You are making a fundamental mistake in assuming that just because someone has spent a lot of time in an area that they are an "expert". As for firsthand knowledge, that makes up a relatively small portion of the "knowledge" available to us. If you look at any academic paper, be it in the area of criminology, political science, psychology, biology or medicine, you will find at the end a great number of references, ie. not firsthand knowledge, simply references to references to references of firsthand knowledge. If research is fancy talk to you, well...

I certainly do not feel that my ten-minute post is worthy of recognition for its carefully researched and cited data. Unfortunately I don't have time to write a paper on the state of seahorses globally at this juncture. My point was that the recognized authority on endangered species globally (the International Union for Conservation of Nature; IUCN) recognizes the rarity of certain seahorse species. Given that the average hobbyist who is buying seahorses couldn't give a damn about what species they have, the stores should attempt to stock solely captive-bred animals, since it is an option in this case. Likewise with animals like clownfish, certain gobies, damsels, angelfishes, etc. I don't ever believe this hobby/industry will be completely free of animals deaths due to poor handling and maintenance practice, but we should at least attempt to use animals that are not at risk.

Agreeing with Saltcreep, if these animals are from a "certified" collector, perhaps located in an area, collecting a species that is not threatened, then we can't complain all that much. But enough concerns over the MAC certification process have been raised in the past. The point is that importation of these animals is relatively needless.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that a few people were jumping the gun and making harsh acusations and condeming a store for something that they dont have the whole picture of. I doubt many hobbiests have spent even many hours researching the seahorse subject and situation, their probably are a few that have studied the situation in depth as they seem to be very devoted to seahorse husbandry. Then you have some members that are in the industry and are, "in the know", they have dedicated days, months, years, to research, not hours..... These individuals usually have a much clearer pic of the industry and are a great resource for hobbiests to draw knowledge from. When you are on a first name basis with alot of the biggest players in this industry,(the folks who have touched almost every fish in your tanks) you get a sense of where the hobby is going, and what the situations are. I wouldnt refer to Saltcreeps view as biased, I would call it an educated view. Trying not to be pompas, the simple fact is that I know alot more about whats going on in this industry than you do, as does Saltcreep. Its not meant to be an insult at all, because of our involvement in the industry, and dedication to it, we have access to information that you do not. If you read every article on the planet on the situation, we would still know more than you about it as we have "inside" knowledge.(I originaly meant to use the phrase "inside" knowledge, not first hand) I was just trying to make a simple point with too many words. (trying to walk lightly...)
Please dont take offense, if we didnt know more than you, we wouldnt be doing our jobs very well....
There are a few industry players that wont even visit this board anymore because of the politicts, and stubborn uninformed opinions.... (I take it with a grain of salt, no skin off my butt )
If you were good at your job, and someone who has little or no experience in your field of work comparitively repeatedly told you that you dont know what your talking about(by repeatedly arguing fact), and they know whats up after dedicating a millionth of the time you have to research, you would get annoyed too

[Quinn]

Certainly Saltcreep knows more about this industry as a whole than I do. You may well know more also, although no one really knows much about you or your company so I will reserve judgement...

However, while some industry members may be more "in the know" about the industry itself, I would not be so quick to assert that they are more "in the know" on the subject of conservation, the true effect of the trade on wild populations, etc. As far as seahorses go, perhaps Bev knows more about these animals than both of you, even though you know more about the trade in these animals. And how many LFS employees and so on are there out there that don't even know how to differentiate between A. ocellaris and A. percula? I would speculate that a very small proportion of industry members truly know what they are talking about. It's absurd to suggest that industry members inherently know more about the hobby as a whole.

This is comparable to police, who think they are somehow more skilled at identifying criminals and understanding the phenomenon of crime than lawyers, judges and criminologists, who have in fact made the police.

Originally Posted by UnderWorldAquatics

Please dont take offense, if we didnt know more than you, we wouldnt be doing our jobs very well....

I guess that comment should sum up what your saying... I agree with you wholeheartedly, alot of industry players dont have a clue, simply put, "they suck" if they are not willing to "learn" the trade, they should go screw something else up that is less important than living animals....

Im pretty sure Bev knows more about them than I do, I dont dedicate as much time as she probably does to them, I can care for them, raise them, breed them, but could know alot more, on the other hand I know alot about the situation with seahorses, as well as the rest of the industry...
I am "lucky" you could say... I have made friends with a bunch of very key players in this industry and have an "inside line" on whats going on...

[Quinn]

The principle of unknowns - maybe all of us have our contacts on the "inside". Gossip doesn't account for much.

For somereason I doubt that....?????????
Some people sure do seem to know alot! even though they have only been involved in marine aquaria for just over a year....
Mabey Im just annoyed..... I dont know how rolling ones eyes is supposed to be taken, but you might as well tell me I dont know jack crap
You know more fancy words than I do, I know more about the aquarium industry than you do. I dont percieve arguing over something that one is not fully familar with as intelligent.....
Okey Dokey, I think I have said more than needs to be said.....
"Take me with a grain of salt, Im just purging..."

[Quinn]

Against the exhortation of my good peers, I'll drop out of this discussion at this point, in the interest of keeping it on the original topic of seahorses, and will wait for a more suitable thread to appear in which to continue this current exchange.

[fishnut]

I, for one, support boycotting stores which sell WC animals when there are CB species available, or at least refusing to buy WC, and making purchases of CB where possible.

This is my view due to sustainability reasons, and also because the CB are just so much better suited for aquarium life - they are used to the food, to life in a tank, to people, and they don't have the diseases the WC ones do.

Less stress due to long shipping distances for the CB = healthier animals.

Just MHO.

[nickb]

While people working in the industry undoubtedly know far more than most of the rest of us about the process of acquiring stock, etc., nearly all of them are in the business to make profit. That isn't bad, but it can influence one's approach to conservation, etc. There are many instances of 'industry knows best' leading to major environmental problems (think about many whale species, cod stocks). I am not saying this is the situation with sea horses (I don't have the knowledge to say that). I am suggesting that people's opinions should be judged on the facts used to support them, not on the stength of conviction or on 'being in the know'.

I've been researching the possibility of starting a seahorse tank. Every site I have read says the same thing: buy only captive bred sea horses. This is to reduce the demand on the wild population. But also becuase of their better record in aquaria (something which should be taken into account). There is a role for WC seahorse for the experts and breeders but I have trouble seeing them being sold to neebies. As such, I share the concerns about a major Canadian aquarium vendor selling WC seahorse without provide clear disclaimers, etc.

Sites of potential interest would include:

http://www.seahorse.org/
http://www.syngnathid.org/
http://www.saseahorse.com/