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#1
07-28-2011, 12:57 PM
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1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
It will impact it some way for sure. But in a way it somehow opens a lot of eyes to what is out there, the beauty of it, and how sensitive these ecosystems are to changes. 2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you? Yes and no it does not bother me too much. 3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs?? Educate yourself and share what you know. 4)do you see the hobby coming to an end?? No 5)do you support captive breeding?? Yes 6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop?? Not much, too many resources abound that people can exploit that are worth more than the fish that can be collected. 7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country?? Yes, there's smuggled stuff and blackmarket goods anywhere, i wouldn't be surprised if somebody somewhere is selling rare and exotic saltwater animals 8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better? Yes 9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild?? Yes 10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse?? Same as far as I can tell 11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes?? Fish-yes. Endangered species should be left to breed. Tank size- no. The bigger the tank the better it is for the inhabitants. 12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures? Not really 13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily They should be more responsible for the creatures they bring in. 14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country?? No 15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world? How? 
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#2
07-28-2011, 07:11 PM
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1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
It certainly has an effect on reef populations, especially if done incorrectly. If we were to practice responsible collecting, however, it is actually possible to have a positive effect on reef populations, species richness and biodiversity (read up on ecological disturbance theory if you're curious). Current practices, unfortunately, decimate reefs. If we were to look at our hobby through another lens, it may have both positive and negative social impacts. Reefs are very much "out of sight, out of mind" for most people. If more people are exposed to the hobby (whether by involvement or simply being shown) and they get that hands-on experience, it becomes much more real for them and they are more aware, even if only a bit more. Movies like "Finding Nemo" have made reef ecosystems more of an social topic (more so for younger generations). I know many people who were interested to learn more about reefs after that movie... but I also know equally as many who are the "OMG Look at that cute little Nemo-fish!" (For those people I just wanna...  ), which I believe actually gives the hobby a bad social image (case in point: designer clownfish).2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you? I try not to, unless something really epic comes up. 95% of my corals are from CanReef member frags. It does bother me when buying wild-caught. 3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs?? Demand better collecting practices, encourage/demand mariculture and spread awareness to the uninitiated. 4)do you see the hobby coming to an end?? Certainly not but there are changes a comin'. 5)do you support captive breeding?? I have mixed feelings on this. I am 100% for captive breeding and believe it should be the way. HOWEVER, I'm not sure how I feel about "designer fish" like the ORA an Picasso clowns (though this isn't much different that guppy or dog breeding). I am DEFINITELY against those frigging Glo-fish that have been genetically modified to fluoresce. 6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop?? Minimal. Marine trade is small beans compared to, well, pretty much every other industry. The aquarium industry would die, or take a major set-back. 7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country?? Sure as heck it does. If our border was more open to the US so that we could get a hold of their livestock, it wouldn't be so bad. We lack the selection, diversity and quality of livestock (in very general terms) that the US does (though luckily we don't share the same stupidly inflated prices). 8)do you think collecting and harvesting practices could be better? Certainly (as mentioned above). If we were to follow wild collection principles that we practice on land we could actually encourage species richness and diversity. Right now we collect in a manner similar to clear-cut logging. Clear-cutting is slowly giving way to more friendly logging practices where we selectively remove from very defined regions and alleviate species pressure. 9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild?? Possibly, would be situation dependent. 10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse?? I previously thought it had gotten worse until I read a few recent studies (2008-2010) that showed collection-related damage has actually gone down but collection is becoming more widespread.. so I'm gonna give this a "no change" overall. 11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes?? Like in terms of the "Tang Police"? No, there is no actual evidence as to what-species-needs-to-be-in-what-size-tank, it is all purely anecdotal (like people saying that betta splendis can be kept in minimal water, as small as a cup, because they are used to this in nature... which is BS). So other than assigning arbitrary numbers, this rule is mostly useless. For many species, like tangs, the instant you put them into a tank. it is not enough water volume. I have seen many 180+ gallon tanks so packed full of live rock and coral that that tang in there would have more swimming volume in my 40 gallon. So really what good is it saying that those tangs can only go into 180+ gallon tanks? Now, I'm not saying we should be shoehorning big species into small tanks. The opposite. I think people just need to be more aware of the species needs and behaviour and make the right decision as to whether or not they are capable of providing appropriate care. Most people are not honest and knowledgeable enough to make the right choice, unfortunately 12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures? Sometimes yes. For smaller species less so. 13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in regularly I am a bit different than most people and I go to huge lengths to learn how to keep the difficult and not-understood species (currently working on a rare starfish). Now, I am not a publishing aquarist; my experiences will only be recorded anecdotal... but this is where this hobby has power over pure science studies: we have strength in numbers and hobby aquarists, like those here on CanReef, communicate far more regularly than scientists do (I'm a scientist, so I can say this with certainty). Knowledge is incremental. Though for a while we may be unsuccessful at a certain species, enough us will start to have small successes that begin to build into a bigger and bigger knowledge-base and we will eventually be successful at a species. I can name TONS of species that we once said were impossible and people now keep them successfully (NPS is the current knowledge revolution happening). Now, if we could only pull our collective sh*t together, be supportive and discuss our past (though failed) experiences we could advance our knowledge of a species REALLY fast. Unfortunately this is not the case, especially around here, where if someone says "I want to try this hard species" or "I brought this home" they are lambasted, flamed, tarred-and-feathered and given another earful for good measure rather than someone saying "Well, you've bitten off more than you could chew on this one and you should be more responsible next time but here are my experiences or this is what I've heard". Eventually, by better understanding the animals we keep and sharing those experiences, we could drastically reduce the number of fatalities. Now, that being said, there are some species that simply cannot exist in small aquaria in the absence of their symbionts or preferred food source (or suitable substitute). These species should certainly be left alone. Critical reef species, like cleaner species, should be left on the reef and be aquacultured instead (if possible... gotta figure out HOW first). 14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country?? I unfortunately have to say yes, depending on what it was. Endangered? Definitely not. Super cool SPS frag from someones tank? Ya, probably. 15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world? No, because this hobby is teaching me how I can save the reefs and oceans. In about 3 years when I finish my PhD I am going to change careers and focus on reef restoration as a career... a task which I will be doing through aquaculture.
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#3
07-28-2011, 09:20 PM
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guys, there will be no reefs at all by 2050....maybe 2100 if we're lucky.
Reefers will play almost no part in it's demise and if every one of us (not just canreef, I mean all of us) stopped this hobby today it would not change a thing. ideals are nice, and they look great on paper or here on the 'net but the facts are the facts so keep all this nonsense up if it helps you sleep at night. Just enjoy it while you can, in your living room or otherwise. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/ar...ort-warns.html Just one very small example of what I mean, lots more rsearch all the time painting more and more dire pictures... or for those of you who dont like to click links...an excerpt from www.treehugger.com First the news was that if we don't change our habits around fishing, all the world's fisheries will be wiped out by 2050. Now, experts guess that if we don't significantly change our interaction with the ocean, coral reefs will be all but wiped out by that same time. J.E.N. Veron, former chief scientist of the Australian Institute of Marine Science, writes that human pollution of the water, as well as human-generated carbon dioxide emissions which are causing ocean acidification and rising ocean temperatures are rapidly killing off corals. He notes that without a radical change in our behaviors and priorities, we will be left with a bleak future for the oceans, and consequently, ourselves. Last edited by gobytron; 07-28-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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#4
07-28-2011, 10:56 PM
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The original document is a review of current threat levels, identifies possible threats and addresses socio-economical impacts, and it should be taken as such. It is an excellent review and makes a strong argument for not f-ing up our reefs. They do provide a forecast of reef pressures but their forecasting methods are far from being robust. Here in Vancouver the average daily temperature over the month of July has gone up by 0.2C per day... so using their forecast method Vancouver, by the time next year, will be a balmy 92C. Gonna have a sweet suntan. The original document also does not account for externalities, natural weather patterns (which caused the major 1998 bleaching event that skewed their results), or take into account natural reef resilience. Trying being less neative and try looking for positive news. Like how there there has been no significant change in the great barrier reef over 13 years or that, despite poor ocean conditions and global warming, reefs are sprinting (in geological terms) toward the poles. Heck, the last one is a result of global warming. None of this says that we aren't causing damage to our reefs and that we shouldn't be doing things better but, in response to this... Quote:
Sorry for the diatribe, Denny! Let's get back to the OP and have some good discussions!
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#5
07-28-2011, 11:41 PM
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Very well put as always Kevin, it's amazing how the "Facts" of a scientific article can be interpreted in which ever way the reader desires.
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#6
07-28-2011, 11:42 PM
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agreed 100%...eyes of the beholder 
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#7
07-28-2011, 11:41 PM
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hey thats the idea is to here both sides of the story and get opinions from everyone after all an opinion in a room to your self is just an opinion now speak that opinion out loud loud in a crowd then you almost always will have a discussion /debate and communication is where the learning begins
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