Hole in the head

[RD]

Titus - while I'm glad to hear that your tang is doing better, the removal of carbon from your system is most likely the reason for that (see previous link) not an increase in plant matter.

Either way, I'm glad to hear that it's doing better.

[fishytime]

RD..... just wondering if you have anything else to say on this forum besides promoting the food you distribute?

[RD]

I promote sound husbandry practices, fishytime. Something that I have been doing for a long time, long before forums like this even existed.

[Proteus]

Well no matter what the opinions are and weather others agree with them I took in all the info given and so far I am making progress. What works for one doesn't work for another but it's always worth a shot

[naesco]

Originally Posted by RD

I promote sound husbandry practices, fishytime. Something that I have been doing for a long time, long before forums like this even existed.

And I have been keeping tangs before forums like this existed and have been lucky enough to swim with them in the reefs

On the reefs I observed tangs spending their whole day eating the marine algae off the rock.
Based on my experience the best food for tangs is marine algae in the form of good quality unflavoured nori and, spirulina.
The best source and delivery method is Wardleys spirulina discs. Unlike other brands, spirulina is the first ingredient listed on the label. The best delivery method is the hard spirulina disks because they remain hard for quite a while.
I scatter them around the tank and they fall to the bottom so the tangs spend their day searching for them just like in the wild.

There may be other products but reefers should look for marine algae based foods and avoid foods that contain land based plant fillers.

[RD]

The reason that I posted in this discussion was to point out that the very food that you dismissed as being adequate for tangs, has now been used in two seperate studies that involved HLLE in herbivorous reef species with resounding success. The previous study was performed in 2001 by Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd, Chris Tilghman, and RuthEllen Klinger from the University of Florida.

In both studies (the Toledo Zoo & Tilghman et-al) the fish fed NLS pellets steadily gained weight, with no noticeable signs of disease, and no deaths. None of the fish fed NLS came down with HLLE. (unlike the other test subjects) It was used by the Curator of Fishes and Invertebrates at the Toledo Zoo as NLS had already been shown not to induce HLLE, hence from a dietary standpoint that could be removed from the equation in his carbon study.

There may be other products but reefers should look for marine algae based foods and avoid foods that contain land based plant fillers.

If you prefer to feed marine algae that's fine by me, but nutrient wise the food that you recommended is about the furthest thing away from what a fish in the wild would find when feeding on any type of marine algae, or the organisms found within that algae, AND it appears to contain massive amounts of land based plant fillers, which you just said should be avoided. Color me confused?

Sure it contains Spirulina Algae Meal, which is followed by .......... Corn Gluten Feed, Corn Gluten Meal, Corn Distillers Dried Grains, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ, Wheat Gluten, Wheat Middlings, Linseed Meal, Canola Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soy Protein Concentrate, Pea Protein, Brewers Dried Yeast, Corn Flour, Rice Flour, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Barley, Calcium Carbonate, Soybean Oil, Spinach Powder, Dried Lecithin

4 forms of Corn, 4 forms of Wheat, and 4 forms of Soy.

Now add up all of the corn, wheat, soybean, linseed, canola, rice, and barley, and your main ingredient of "spirulina" is probably so dilluted that it most likely barely shows up on the nutrient radar. This is precisely what I meant when I previously stated that Wardley's gives the illusion that it is high in spirulina content. Even if one was being generous and allowed an inclusion rate of 25% spirulina algae meal, deducting 1% for the vitamin & mineral premix, that would still leave you with 74% land based plant fillers. They then add soybean oil for additional lipid content, which boosts the terrestrial based lipid content even higher, which we know can cause liver damage in marine specimens when fed in excess.

Still seem like the best source of marine algae to you?

[naesco]

Yes because it it much better than products that advertise as spirulina, or herbivore food and list spirulina down the list of ingredients after land based veggies.

Nori is 100 percent marine algae and when purchased at an asian store is cheap like borscht.

[RD]

Yes because it it much better than products that advertise as spirulina, or herbivore food and list spirulina down the list of ingredients after land based veggies.

It all boils down to the inclusion rate of each raw ingredient.

As an example, a manufacturer making a 1 ton batch of food could have 100 pounds of spirulina in that 2,000 lb batch of food, with the next 19 ingredients each weighing in at 98 pounds. That still leaves some room for additional oil, and the vitamin premix.

That formula could have "spirulina" listed as the main ingredient by dry weight, yet overall it would contain FAR more low cost terrestrial based fillers, fillers with overall poor digestibility, fillers that are known to contain anti-nutritional matter such as saponins, tannins, protease inhibitors, phytic acid, etc, and fillers that contain lipids that are known to cause long term liver damage when fed in excess to marine fish.

IMHO not only would that food be a poor choice for algae supplementation, but due to the fact that it would also be missing key amino acids, and long chain fatty acids, elements that are known to be essential to the growth and overall health of a marine fish, it most certainly would fail as any type of stand alone food for a herbivore, or otherwise.



Another manufacturer could make a 2,000 lb batch of food, and use just as much spirulina as the example above (perhaps even of far higher grade), as well as a substantial inclusion rate of algae meal, which is comprised of several sources of marine algae and micro-algae, and those ingredients could show up further down on the ingredient list simply because of the varying amounts of the other ingredients (that contain the correct balance of essential amino acids & fatty acids) in that formula. That, and have only 1 terrestrial based starch used as a binding agent, that does not contain known anti-nutritional matter such as saponins.

It is virtually impossible to compare ingredient percentages by simply reading a label, unless you are privy to the exact amounts used in each & every formula made by each & every manufacturer.

In some cases the listings on labels are nothing more than a numbers game, and some companies know how to play the game very well. And while I agree that there are foods marketed as "spirulina" or "algae" foods, that overall contain very little marine algae, by the same token one cannot conclude that a food is of high quality by simply looking at the main ingredient. It's always a good idea to look at the little picture (main ingredients) but if the BIG picture doesn't add up, then you most certainly need to consider that as well.


If it is your opinion that certain tangs require some form of algae supplementation beyond what one can find in some of the various pellet foods currently on the market, I have no problem with that, your fish, your call, but as previously stated nutrient wise the discs that you recommended are about the furthest thing away from what a fish in the wild would find when feeding on any type of marine algae, or the micro-organisms found within that algae.

HTH