Marine Ich help please

[TimT]

HI Darryl,

How old is the bulb in the UV? If over a year replace it. I would then place a fluval 302 into the tank and run the water through the UV and then back into tank.

Myka's advice on raising temp is good. Just as long as the tank doesnt go to 85 during the day.

Cheers,
Tim

[dsaundry]

uv bulb only a couple of months old, temp usually will stay at 80 but can go a degree or 2 within that. Usually very stable. Will see what happens over the next few days.

[Myka]

If you were closer I would lend you a spare 55w UV sterilizer I have sitting in the corner. Run them in-line and that extra kick might be enough. Know anyone with a UV they could lend you?

[fishytime]

Im probably gonna pi$$ off some people with this but......oh well.....there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish.....these claims are purely anecdotal....... http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f1...ess-14807.html .......if you still feel that garlic is the magic cure all for ick than fresh garlic is the only way to go......garlic extreme and garlic extract are useless http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/wiki...c-in-fish-food ....... in fact un-scientific tests have suggested that prolonged feeding of garlic may cause liver damage in fish http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1874623.......

[naesco]

Originally Posted by fishytime

Im probably gonna pi$$ off some people with this but......oh well.....there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish.....these claims are purely anecdotal....... http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f1...ess-14807.html .......if you still feel that garlic is the magic cure all for ick than fresh garlic is the only way to go......garlic extreme and garlic extract are useless http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/wiki...c-in-fish-food ....... in fact un-scientific tests have suggested that prolonged feeding of garlic may cause liver damage in fish http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1874623.......

I read the references you quoted.
The first reference is over 8 years old.
The second article does not mention garlic extreme. Garlic extract is concentrated garlic and would be much stronger than than garlic juice.
The third article talks about possible problems with prolonged use. I am not suggesting prolonged use of garlic.

This reefers fish are dying and he is seeking help. Based on my personal experience I have been successful in defeating ich as detailed in my earlier post.

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by naesco

I read the references you quoted.
The first reference is over 8 years old.
The second article does not mention garlic extreme. Garlic extract is concentrated garlic and would be much stronger than than garlic juice.
The third article talks about possible problems with prolonged use. I am not suggesting prolonged use of garlic.

obviously not closely enough
your point about the article being eight years old is?
it doesnt matter what bottled garlic you..... use the ingredient in garlic(allicin) that gives it its "medicinal/magical" properties breaks down very quickly rendering any bottled garlic basically nothing more than a garlicy smelling juice
Mindy suggested prolonged use

[RD]

Actually there are numerous scientific studies that has come out over the past decade, but most if not all of these studies with garlic involve freshwater species. I would imagine that it's a matter of funding, and/or importance in the marine area, but some groups in the freshwater sector are taking a very strong look at garlics potential, and the results are no longer just anecdotal.

Also, while allicin is the main active ingredient found in garlic, it is only one sulphur compound amongst many compounds & enzymes found in Allium sativum, and it would be more than just a bit presumptuous at this stage of the research taking place in this area to believe that allicin is the only active compound that has any health benefits associated with its use in aquaculture. There is much more involved with regards to the bioactive components in garlic, than just allicin.

Some of the studies that I've read actually involved garlic powder, and yet yielded some very positive results. In most of the aquaculture studies that I am aware of the garlic that was used was not fresh, or a derivative was used.

The only studies I'm aware of that involved liver damage speculation, or any type of short or long term health risk to a marine or freshwater fish, involved the pure form of allicin fed at elevated levels. I discussed one such study in detail with one of the research scientists involved with a study that took place a couple of years ago in the UK. Unfortunately he couldn't see beyond his PhD.

On the other side of the coin I have seen scores of marine species consume pellet feed that contained garlic at a low inclusion rate, on a daily basis for close to 15 yrs, with no negative health issues whatsoever.


While the research & studies posted below don't involve the marine species that members here might keep in their tanks, I don't think that it's a huge leap of faith to extrapolate at least some of this information to marine species.



A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus).

Fish Hatchery and Reproductive Physiology Department, Central Laboratory for Aquaculture Research, Abbassa, Abo-Hammad, Sharkia, Egypt

J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196


http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...lng=en&nrm=iso



While the document linked to above is a very long read, in the end the authors state:

Finally, from the obtained results it could be recommended that garlic (Allium Sativum) may be used as a growth promoter and antibiotic for the treatment or prevention of diseases and for enhancing fish tolerance to environmental stress (62); therefore garlic powder should be added to the diet of freshwater fish.

In this particular study the inclusion of garlic at a rate of 3% (via garlic powder) has shown to increase the overall digestibility of protein, carbohydrates, and fat (ie; better growth), as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, and water column.





In Norway, the Austevoll Aquaculture Research Station has studied the use of garlic as a natural biocide against sea lice, with positive results.
http://www.onefish.org/servlet/CDSSe...50cyYzNz1pbmZv



There are other studies that have also shown very positive results in using garlic as a more natural way to control various pathogens.


Effect of Allium sativum on the immunity and survival of Labeo rohita infected with Aeromonas hydrophila
S. Sahu, B. K. Das, B. K. Mishra, J. Pradhan and N. Sarangi

Aquatic Animal Health Division, Central Institute of Freshwater Aquaculture, Kausalyaganga, Bhubaneswar, India

Journal of Applied Ichthyology, Volume 23 Issue 1, Pages 80 - 86

Summary


The aim of this study was to evaluate dietary dosages of garlic on the immune response and disease resistance against infections due to the opportunistic pathogen Aeromonas hydrophila in Labeo rohita fingerlings. Garlic, Allium sativum, was incorporated into the diets (0%, 0.1%, 0.5% and 1.0%) of rohu, L. rohita fingerlings (10 ± 2 g). Every 20 days, different biochemical (serum total protein, albumin, globulin, albumin : globulin ratio, blood glucose), haematological (WBC, RBC and haemoglobin content) and immunological (superoxide anion production, lysozyme activity and serum bactericidal activity) parameters were evaluated. Superoxide anion production, lysozyme, serum bactericidal, serum protein and albumin were enhanced in garlic treated groups compared with the control group. After 60 days, fish were challenged with A. hydrophila and mortality (%) was recorded up to day 10 post-challenge. Survival decreased in control group (57%) up to day 10 after infection. However, this was increased in the garlic treatment group, i.e. 85% survivability in the 1 g garlic kg−1 (B group) and 5 g garlic kg−1 (C group), and 71% survivability in the 10 g garlic kg−1 (D group), respectively. These results indicate that Allium sativum stimulates the immunity and makes L. rohita more resistant to infection by A. hydrophila.

And another ..............


EFFECT OF GARLIC ON THE SURVIVAL, GROWTH, RESISTANCE AND QUALITY OF OREOCHROMIS NILOTICUS

Salah Mesalhy Aly, Nashwa Mahmoud Abdel Atti* and Mohamed Fathi Mohamed

The WorldFish Center, Research Center for Africa & West Asia, Abbassa, Sharkia, Egypt. Dept of Food Hygiene, Animal Health Research Institute, Ismailia Laboratory, Egypt.

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/IS...%20Meselhy.pdf




In Israel, researchers from the Ben Gurion University aquaculture dept. are also experimenting with allicen, the active ingredient in garlic, for its anti-bacterial properties.
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/Ar...100000f932a8c0



No doubt there are many more studies that have or currently are taking place within the aquatic industry, the examples above are just a few that I am aware of.



HTH

[paddyob]

Originally Posted by fishytime

your point about the article being eight years old is?

I think his point is that the research is 8 years old and that science 8 years ago may not be as accurate. I thought his point was clear without explanation needed.

Is this correct Naesco?

Science has been proven wrong before. Many times. And most of the time, the research disputed, well, its old. Go figure?

I would agree with him on this garlic issue. This same dispute has been going on for a long time. It seems many people have had great success, so no reason slam it just because some have not had the same success.

Garlic cleared a small Ich outbreak I had. GO GARLIC!!!!

[Myka]

Originally Posted by fishytime

Mindy suggested prolonged use

Just to clear up this "accusation"... I have used garlic regularly for over a decade, but not like naesco was describing like super garlic soak. I just add a drop of Garlic Extreme to frozen foods. I thaw 4 cubes of frozen foods (50% PE mysis, 25% some marine mix with nori in it, 25% chopped seafood),drain, then add 6 drops Selcon and 1 drop Garlic Extreme. I then add a couple ounces of fresh saltwater. I keep this concoction in the fridge until it is used up...usually about 3 days. Sometimes I leave out the garlic, sometimes I leave out the Selcon, sometimes I leave out both.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by fishytime

there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish

The ornamental marine hobby isn't supported by a whole lot of scientific evidence as a whole. I'm not sure if your claim is accurate or not, but garlic works for me.