DSB Cleaning

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

What's the rule of thumb with tiger tails and amount of open sand bed per cuke? I've always wanted one but not sure I have enough open sand bed. (Waiting for the bigger tank first... )

not sure they were given to me but I don't realy think you need open sand bed as mine are never on the open sand be but rather snaking in and out of the rocks on the sand.

they came out of a 50 gal tank with little open sand bed so not to much would be my guess.

Steve

[tkhawaja]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

I believe that PO4 is irreversibly attached to the sand.

This is new information for me, can you let us know of your source as I have a DSB and would like to read any new information. When I was setting up my DSB the research I did pointed to organism extinction as the main problem with DSB's. The suggestion was to renew the organism culture in the DSB every year or so with new stock. There are places in the states which ship "kits" for exactly this purpose. Since these organisms are not covered by CITES shipping to Canada is not a problem. A properly set up DSB provides many benefits and few negatives. This is the best article I found explaining DSB's.

[Aquattro]

Your quoting an article by Ron Shimek, who is the most biased person available to comment on DSBs. Many qualified chemists have talked about substances binding to calcerous substrate. An example is the use of kalk to precipitate PO4 from solution. And since Ca is a cation and PO4 an anion, the relationship is obvious. To break this bond would require something with a stornger charge, like HCL. However, although a bath in HCL would remove the PO4, the size of most sugar sands would lend itself to complete dissolution in the time required to cleanse it. Large crushed coral can be successfully washed in acid.
Further "proof" for me is the fact that I had removed some of my sand, cleaned it, and replaced it back in the tank. ALmost immediately it started growing algae again. I believe this algae growth is due to the presence of PO4 adsorbed onto the sand.
As a note, I now have a 1.5 inch sandbed and no detectable nitrates present.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by tkhawaja

Since these organisms are not covered by CITES shipping to Canada is not a problem.

A properly set up DSB provides many benefits and few negatives. .

The places that offer these kits do not ship to Canada any longer. It has been this way for a few years.

What makes you say that a properly setup DSB has many benifits and few negatives? Ron's article? Or long term personal experience?

[tkhawaja]

Oh my, I guess this means that eventually I will have to remove the DSB and the sand bed in the aquarium is enough for the job. Or will it be enough to remove the top few inches of the DSB every year and replace with new sand? The main question being does the DSB still perform denitrification even with the PO4 bonding? Thus changing the top few inches would take care of the algae growth on the sand.

[Aquattro]

My (wrong) thoughts also. I tried doing that, but the algae continued. The PO4 accumulation also inhibits coral calcification, which I did notice as well. Denitrification does continue (it is not a function of the media composition, only size) although the 4" inches recommended by Dr. Ron isn't required. The aragamax bag actually says only 1" required, and I have found this to be true. In fact, a tank with the proper amount of quality porous rock should have 0 nitrates.
I believe that most people will need to remove their sand when it hits the 4year range. This should also be a consideration when purchasing used sand. The bad stuff comes with it!!
What i did was remove all my sand, and I added 2 bags of new sand. I am so far please with the results. I have a large selection of sand fauna, 0 nitrates, and the tank is now 3 inches deeper than it used to be.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

Further "proof" for me is the fact that I had removed some of my sand, cleaned it, and replaced it back in the tank.

you don't think that had anything to do with the cat peeing in it do ya?


this is one area where me and Brad disagree (not to often you'll find that) but I think it was more a problem with the depth and the bottom areas of the sandbed becomming septic and causing compounds that would not normaly be formed in a non septic enviorment to leach back to the water colume. by reducing the depth you get rid of these septic areas and thus no bad stuff.

I don't think Brad can say for sure it was because he put new sand in or because he reduced his depth as the sand he had in there had contaminated stuff from another source so he never tried just reducing the depth as he HAD to replace his sand.

Dr ron's original theorys were good and work in the Ocean but even he admidts that in the hoby we only have 1 or 2% of the different types of critteres needed to make it all work properly, and for the past few months he has been backtracking on his whole sand bed theorys and trying to blame everything else like heavy metals and different brands fo salt for the sand bed failurs that were set up to his method.

Steve

[tkhawaja]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

What makes you say that a properly setup DSB has many benifits and few negatives? Ron's article? Or long term personal experience?

I don't know if DSB's were the "trend" when I was doing my research but that was the suggestion all over the web. Unless I read all the wrong websites. My tank is only a few months old and thus is still going through the various algae bloom cycles as I didn't have the space to cure the LR properly before adding it to the aquarium. This resulted in lots of green hair algae growth. My green algae bloom is over and now it's into the red algae bloom. I'm just trudging along with my normal maintenance and every week the tank looks better with less nuisance algae.

I've had 0 nitrares since a few weeks after setup, lots of healthy macro algae, and copepod growth. Corraline growth is good and coming along nicely. Every week I pull out more hair algae, and it's not growing back. The only thing I'm worried about is Valonia, but I figure once all the excess nutrients, due to the hair algae die off, are exported it will be better.

I'll post my success/failure after I finish adding all my planned organisms. But don't hold your breath, that could take years according to my plan.

[tkhawaja]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Dr ron's original theorys were good . . ...
... . . and for the past few months he has been backtracking on his whole sand bed theorys and trying to blame everything else like heavy metals and different brands fo salt for the sand bed failurs that were set up to his method.

I guess DSB's were a trend when I did my research. Atleast I'm ok for the next 4 years or so , then I'll pull out all my sand from the DSB and use that area striclty as a refugium instead of a regufium/DSB combo.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by tkhawaja

I'll pull out all my sand from the DSB and use that area striclty as a refugium instead of a regufium/DSB combo.

is your bed remote from the main tank?

Steve