calling all electricans

[raceit]

The thing to keep in mind is the purpose of the breaker, protection of the wire, not the device plugged into the outlet.

#14 = 15 amps
#12 = 20 amps
#10 = 30 amps
etc etc

max circuit load is 80 %

[Binare]

Originally Posted by raceit

The thing to keep in mind is the purpose of the breaker, protection of the wire, not the device plugged into the outlet.

#14 = 15 amps
#12 = 20 amps
#10 = 30 amps
etc etc

max circuit load is 80 %

yes and no. Depends on the duty rating of the breaker, whether the device is continious or non continious etc etc. . Hell some breakers dont trip at all. Federal Pioneer anyone? Dont worry, they finally fixed them hehe.

[raceit]

fp breakers are for welding, no stinger required lol

[2pts]

I'm not an electrician. I wired my own house (complete 200 amp service, 4500sqft).

I work with several electricians, and asked one "if you were gonna build a new house for yourself, what would you do that most premade houses don't have?"

His answer "I would install gfci outlets at the first outlet of each circuit". (If wired right it protects all remaining outlets on that circuit.)

So, I did that, the inspector said there was nothing wrong with the way I wired it, very safe, but I would have tonnes of "nuisance trips" from the outlets. Well I did, and promptly rewired almost all GFCI outlets so they only protected themselves, not the down line outlets.

I know it was overkill and expensive, but what I did was run 14/3 to my fishtank circuit, which is 2 seperate double plugs. (Be careful if you do this, research it a lot.) The white (neutral) is shared with the 2 hot circuits (red/black). In the panel I put in a double pole 15amp GFCI breaker ( $150 breaker).

I regret running the 14/3, that locked me into a 2 pole breaker, which is more money. If I did it again I would run either 2 lines of 14/2 and 2 single pole 15 amp gfci breakers or better yet 2 @ 12/2 lines and 2 single pole 20 amp gfci breakers. Reason being, if one circuit trips, it trips both breakers, meaning all my pumps die, except my return pump in the basement which runs in the sump and is plugged into a gfci plug on a whole other circuit.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by 2pts

I know it was overkill and expensive, but what I did was run 14/3 to my fishtank circuit, which is 2 seperate double plugs. (Be careful if you do this, research it a lot.) The white (neutral) is shared with the 2 hot circuits (red/black). In the panel I put in a double pole 15amp GFCI breaker ( $150 breaker).

I regret running the 14/3, that locked me into a 2 pole breaker, which is more money. If I did it again I would run either 2 lines of 14/2 and 2 single pole 15 amp gfci breakers or better yet 2 @ 12/2 lines and 2 single pole 20 amp gfci breakers. Reason being, if one circuit trips, it trips both breakers, meaning all my pumps die, except my return pump in the basement which runs in the sump and is plugged into a gfci plug on a whole other circuit.

I was going to suggest running 12/3. I did this in my old house then used 15 amp breaker and 15 amp recepticles. I went for the 20 amp wire so if I found I needed the extra power later I could just change the breaker to 20 amp and the outlets also for cheep.

I don't know why you regretted doing it breakers are dirt cheep and you don't need a double pole. you can run two 15amp single slot breakers that way they will trip independently I have two circutes in this house that are run that way. 40 bucks in breakers (I have the expensive type in the new sub pannel ) if you have stablock you can get them for 10 to 15 bucks each.

Steve

[2pts]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I don't know why you regretted doing it breakers are dirt cheep and you don't need a double pole. you can run two 15amp single slot breakers that way they will trip independently I have two circutes in this house that are run that way. 40 bucks in breakers (I have the expensive type in the new sub pannel ) if you have stablock you can get them for 10 to 15 bucks each.

Steve

Oh for sure I could have easily done what you said, but by making the choice of having the GFCI in the breaker, not the outlet, that is where the cost weant way up.

Here is a link to the breaker I have at home depot...
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

[mike31154]

I'd advise against running any "3" wire such as 14/3 or 12/3 as well for much the same reason as 2pts has mentioned. I wired up some bedroom circuits with 14/3 on a single Siemens AFCI circuit breaker specially designed for two circuits. I then saw a "Note" in the "Electrical Code Simplified" book by PS Knight, that states an AFCI breaker "cannot be used with three wire cables, only two supply wire cables may be used." Mind you, the illustration in the book shows a Square D single pole Arc Fault breaker and there's a newer version of the book available with much more info on AFCI & GFCI requirements. I haven't had a chance to look at the latest revisions, but I reckon if Siemens produces double pole AFCI breakers designed for their panels and for use with 3 wire cable, it's more than likely safe and I haven't had a problem since installing mine. Not sure whether I could have used two 14/2 cables with this breaker instead of the 14/3, can't seem to find the installation instructions at the moment. Looks like the center neutral connection on the breaker could handle two neutrals. Anyhow, I digress, I think. I did say I regret doing this. Main reason is the size of the breaker itself, it's massive & uses up several spaces in the panel, and while you save a bit on wiring with the 3 conductor cable, I don't really like the idea of the single neutral wire carrying the return current for both hot leads feeding two separate circuits. This seems to go somewhat against another code requirement calling for adequate separation of wire runs to protect from overheating & fire. In 3 wire cable, they're all bundled together nice & tight in the outer sheathing.

How does that relate to wiring a GFCI protected circuit with 3 wire cable? While I didn't find the same Note I alluded to in the previous paragraph in my trusty "Simplified Code" book, it does say to use only 2 wire cable because the GFI circuit breaker will not work if wired with 3 wire cable. This does make sense since the principle behind a GFI is to compare incoming to outgoing current in the hot & neutral, then trip once the current mismatch reaches the design threshold which is in the 3 to 5 milliamp range. It's easy to see that with a 3 wire cable (2 hots & 1 neutral), it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be a current mismatch in fairly short order. Therefore any circuits in your home wired using 3 wire cable are poor candidates for a GFCI device. Having said that, the link 2pts provides in his post clearly shows a dandy Siemens 2 pole GFCI circuit breaker that's got the same form factor as the 2 pole AFCI breaker I installed. I can only surmise that one would use two separate 14/2 cables to wire up this device and the magic involved in comparing current flow happens inside the breaker.

In any case, my preference is to run two separate 15 amp circuits using 14/2 wire over a single 20 amp circuit wherever possible. The smaller guage 14 wire is easier to work with and you get a total of 30 amps with the redundancy of two separate circuits and additional flexibility as to the use of GFCI devices (breaker or receptacle, your choice). Of course for places like the garage, workshop, outdoor outlets where you know you'll be using devices & tools capable of drawing close to 20 amps per single device, 20 amp or larger circuit is the way to go. Just be prepared to pay a premium for 20 amp GFI devices & other hardware.