Tang Police or Tang Nazis?

[gobytron]

Originally Posted by JonT

Wow. Okay then....

I was simply pointing out that while we have taken the fish from the ocean our job was to take care of it as best we can.

Sorry if that got lost in the translation. Was just making a comparison using a dog. Lots of popular TV shows regarding animal cruelty these days. But not for animals with fins.....

As for eco rock? Really? Dig a big hole toss all kinds of sediments into the water ways, destroying local lakes, and rivers eco systems. Pollutants in the air from the equipment digging it up etc. So that we feel better? I will stick with my live rock. I am sure that it isn't collected per the "loose rock" rules that most regions have, but less impact than digging holes, refining the rocks to turn it back into rock.

As for being no better than the next, your wrong there. I do frequent the forums. I make educated purchases. I make sure that I am not buying something unreasonable for my aquarium. I don't just trust some kid at a store that it is "okay" I stick with sponsors that know what the hell their doing. And even then, I still will wait on a purchase till I have looked it up myself.

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.
You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by gobytron

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.
You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

GobyTron, I think you are coming across a little harsh... You probably don't mean it though, its the common problem with forums. Believe me, I have had my fair share of my comments being taken the wrong way.

I think we all can say that non of us have the right, but we still do... So lets just try the best we can for our little inhabitants. If we all really cared enough, then we wouldn't be taking anything from the oceans, so I guess we are all selfish/greedy.

Just my 2cents.

[gobytron]

Harsh?

just pointing out the obvious in my mind.

Apologies to those who may feel offended by my words here but maybe it's because they make sense and that doesnt feel too good.

In my mind, it's reality thats harsh and not me.

Admittably, there is no one I would rather play devils advocate to than tank nazis.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by gobytron

Harsh?

just pointing out the obvious in my mind.

I gotta agree with you. It's a conflict of interest, in my mind, to defend a fish's rights and freedoms when you in fact own a fish. Is a 180 better than a 90 for a tang? Probably, but marginally at best. Unless you own a tank about a kilometer long, you're not coming close to replicating it's environment. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.
I've heard of tangs settling down once leaving a 4' tank for a 6'. I see no difference in mine after this move. They cannot get anywhere near cruising speed, and you can tell they'd rather be home in the ocean.

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

[kien]

Actually, while this statement may sound ridiculous on the surface, I think you're absolutely right and is more or less what the article has found.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.

[lastlight]

None of our tanks are suitable in my opinion. Most hobbyists feel better the more space they have. That much we know. We've grown comfortable with the six foot rule which is mostly for our peace of mind not theirs. Six is better than three but it's still a drop in the Big Bucket.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

couldnt agree more theres too much about whats right and whats wrong, we all use the judgement that suits us best if someone elses beliefs or practises are different then our own then thats their god given right but why should we argue over things that will never have a solid answer......whos right and whos wrong is always gonna be up for debate so i say choose your side based on your own feelings.

i got into sw for the hobby of it, so as a hobbyst and not a conservationalist i dont quabble over right and wrong i just wait for opportunities to come my way so while you all are arguing ill stand neutral...... this hobby to me is an experiment im not trying to save the world im trying to save my sanity and keep myself busy if i save the reef in the process then great if i am somehow to blame for destroying it then....sorry in advance


i think the reason we all dont have big fish in super small tanks isnt because we feel morally at fault if that was the case id offer money to every bum i seen we dont do it because they dont fit, if i had a 3' tank and a 9" fish then he takes up the whole tank and would leave little room for viewing which is the whole idea of a aquarium.

[2pts]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

100% agree.

Tang police, well my opinion is their overall effect may be that the average captive tang's swimming space will be marginally larger when compared to a tang that remains in the ocean.

Disclaimer: I have 2 tangs in my tank that is aproximately 130 gallons. If I can afford to, within a year and a half I will upgrade to a 200ish gallon tank.

[JonT]

Originally Posted by gobytron

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)

Originally Posted by gobytron

You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.

Originally Posted by gobytron

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.

Originally Posted by gobytron

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.

[Aquattro]

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.