The reef gods have it in for me!

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Canadian Man

But automaticaly everyone starts blaming the sand bed because they read a thread on RC about it. Next we will all be ripping out our sandbeds

maybe both you and bob should read my post again.. I said it could be a possability, not that it absolutly was.

frankly I started suspecting something was wrong with my sand bed befor I ever saw that post. if you want to get technical it was about 8 months ago when I started wondering if it was the cause of my problems.

If you ask Teevee he had all the same types of sand bed disruption laitly that I noted brought on diatom and algae out breaks.

Bob as for cyno being a normal algae process I will call BS on that one.. Cyno is a bacteria not a algae so how can it be a normal algae cycle? Cyno is simple.. something is allowing a bacteria to culture in your tank. for what it is worth I never got cyno once in my tank and I didn't get any algae outbreaks untill my sand bed was over 6 months old. and then what I noticed is that if my sand bed was disturbed with in a week I would get a gold/brown algae outbreak along with some diatoms. this would subside after a week or two then would reapear a week after the sand bed got disrupted again. (usaly from a power head).

I do believe in the merits of a sand bed but I think everyone jumped on the DSB bandwagon with out even researching it fully (even myself I hate to admidt. DSBs were one thing I never realy researched but rather I took for gosple as we had Dr Ron saying they were so good, and all the reefers with tanks that were less that 1 year old praising there DSBs) now that my tank was ripped apart and the opertunity afforded its self I started reading and finding that the people who are having the least algae outbreaks and the most sussess seam to be running about a 1 to 2" bed instead of a 4 to 6". there are several reasons that make sence for this but if you have a DSB you are going to automaticly not want to believe them as I did untill reciently. Even the good Dr is now saing that a DSB isn't going to work in our tanks as we have a average of only 14 of the 1000+ different types of organisms needed to make a DSB work. also it is documented that a DSB is a phosphate trap and the surface of the sand has elavated levels of phosphate while the water colume shows none or very little (this is why people are getting algae growing on the sand bed) so this is not only a idea that I came up with after that thread.. I have been thinking the DSB was my problem for 8 months now but like other I was trying to find every reason for it to be something else (by the way.. 8 months ago puts the age of my sand bed at 7 months old. I did feed heavy but my water tested perfect as the sand bed was adsorbing all the nutrents. besides we were always told to feed the DSB heavy). no one wants to admidt they spent a tone of money on something they didn't need to. I got over that part though as I have spent a insain amount of money on this tank that a 300 buck bill for sand isn't phasing me anymore and I don't know weather this is good or bad..

I am also not saying that everyone with a DSB should tear it out but they should keep there eyes open and start a log of events. then at least is your can't see any coralation at the pressent time maybe a year from now you will look at your log and start seeing a patteren like I did. some of the things I wrot in my log was any time I fed a new food, when ever a pump quite working, or came lose, any time there was a disruption of the sand bed, new additions, when I harvested algae, and when fish died (this is what tipped me off to the toxic effects of some types of calurpa) ect..

so as you can see I am not being a bandwagon jumper this time like WE ALL WERE when we started our DSBs but rather I am only taking the next logical step to iron out some issues that I have observed in my tank. and I am not saying Teevee it is definatly your DSB, but rather think about it and see if there are any coincidents or factors that could lead you to suspect your DSB and don't rule it out because Bob or CM said so and don;t assume it is the DSB because I sad so.. you have to watch your tank and rule out one thing at a time.

now who's soap box was I standing on?

Steve

[Bob I]

Perhaps you should re read my post Steve. At no point in the post did I say it was part of an ALGAE process. I said it was part of a normal maturing process. But of course as usual Bob is wrong, and Steve is right.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by rcipema

At no point in the post did I say it was part of an ALGAE process.

I'll give you that.. my mistake most of the time people refer to the maturing process as algae.. but I still see no reason to concider cyno a normal process. it may be commen but it should never be concidered normal

and I never said you were wrong only that you are to quick to discount others opinions (as per normal).. so if you want to go sulk and feel wronged so be it.. but all I am doing is introducing another possibility like yourself. now if I would have come out and said checm cleen shem cleen why would you use chemicals in your tank to try solve a algae problem? I could see that you would have a good reason to pout but I didn't.. I mearly said I had a simular problem that turned out to be the sand bed.

and in my last post I said to watch and try figure out what is going on befor the gun is jumpped. sory if you feel telling some one to slow down and observe there tank for a bit is wrong info.. maybe I should have said to run out and buy 4 packs of chemicals in to get rid of what ever befor we know whate the cause is... whould that have made you happy Bob?

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Given the information we know from RC, we should at least look at the possibility of the DSB doing something that we didn't intend.

If it was simply an overfeeding problem, then we should have seen this problem since day one. I seemed to recall that Teevee said that his tank has been doing quite well until recently.

One puzzling thing is the refugium...where did all of the macro algae go? The worms are an indication of high nutrient content in the water. I guess we can use them as nutrient export? You can also try to grow Xenia's...good nutrient exports too

One simple test to see if your DSB is okay and running properly is to check for Nitrogen gas. If your DSB is releasing nitrogen gas on a regular basis, then it is working properly and efficiently. If it isn't...umm...either you don't have significant levels of nutrients in your tank or...it is not working properly. In TeeVee's pictures, I do see gas pockets in his sand bed. The question is...are those pockets growing and is the gas being released?

Any who...the solution to the problem is the same as what others have said...export nutrients (skimming, restart refugium, siphon and etc) and feed less. You could use an oxidizer like Chemi-clear to supercharge your skimmer, but I would use it with caution -- especially with sensitive corals.

Good luck!

- Victor.

[Quinn]

No need for anyone to get excited. I appreciate everyone's comments and I'll be starting out with some simply fixes - less food, more water changes. I stopped doing regular 20 gallon water changes and switched off to irregular 6 gallon water changes, and that may be a part of the problem. Another potential factor is the fact that my lights are getting old. I don't know if this is really an issue, but some people have suggested it might be. I will see if I can afford some new bulbs around Xmas.

I think the main thing to remember here is that one cannot make cause and effect statements based on correlation. These tanks are a bundle of variables, and it would take rigorous scientific testing to nail down the exact problems. For now I am going to attempt to treat the symptoms rather than the problem. Removing the DSB is not an option no matter what. As most of you know, I have to sell this tank this spring anyways. At that time the new buyer can do whatever they wish with the sand bed. There is no point in risking my livestock at this time.

[Canadian Man]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

maybe both you and bob should read my post again.. I said it could be a possability, not that it absolutly was.

frankly I started suspecting something was wrong with my sand bed befor I ever saw that post. if you want to get technical it was about 8 months ago when I started wondering if it was the cause of my problems.

If you ask Teevee he had all the same types of sand bed disruption laitly that I noted brought on diatom and algae out breaks.

Bob as for cyno being a normal algae process I will call BS on that one.. Cyno is a bacteria not a algae so how can it be a normal algae cycle? Cyno is simple.. something is allowing a bacteria to culture in your tank. for what it is worth I never got cyno once in my tank and I didn't get any algae outbreaks untill my sand bed was over 6 months old. and then what I noticed is that if my sand bed was disturbed with in a week I would get a gold/brown algae outbreak along with some diatoms. this would subside after a week or two then would reapear a week after the sand bed got disrupted again. (usaly from a power head).

I do believe in the merits of a sand bed but I think everyone jumped on the DSB bandwagon with out even researching it fully (even myself I hate to admidt. DSBs were one thing I never realy researched but rather I took for gosple as we had Dr Ron saying they were so good, and all the reefers with tanks that were less that 1 year old praising there DSBs) now that my tank was ripped apart and the opertunity afforded its self I started reading and finding that the people who are having the least algae outbreaks and the most sussess seam to be running about a 1 to 2" bed instead of a 4 to 6". there are several reasons that make sence for this but if you have a DSB you are going to automaticly not want to believe them as I did untill reciently. Even the good Dr is now saing that a DSB isn't going to work in our tanks as we have a average of only 14 of the 1000+ different types of organisms needed to make a DSB work. also it is documented that a DSB is a phosphate trap and the surface of the sand has elavated levels of phosphate while the water colume shows none or very little (this is why people are getting algae growing on the sand bed) so this is not only a idea that I came up with after that thread.. I have been thinking the DSB was my problem for 8 months now but like other I was trying to find every reason for it to be something else (by the way.. 8 months ago puts the age of my sand bed at 7 months old. I did feed heavy but my water tested perfect as the sand bed was adsorbing all the nutrents. besides we were always told to feed the DSB heavy). no one wants to admidt they spent a tone of money on something they didn't need to. I got over that part though as I have spent a insain amount of money on this tank that a 300 buck bill for sand isn't phasing me anymore and I don't know weather this is good or bad..

I am also not saying that everyone with a DSB should tear it out but they should keep there eyes open and start a log of events. then at least is your can't see any coralation at the pressent time maybe a year from now you will look at your log and start seeing a patteren like I did. some of the things I wrot in my log was any time I fed a new food, when ever a pump quite working, or came lose, any time there was a disruption of the sand bed, new additions, when I harvested algae, and when fish died (this is what tipped me off to the toxic effects of some types of calurpa) ect..

so as you can see I am not being a bandwagon jumper this time like WE ALL WERE when we started our DSBs but rather I am only taking the next logical step to iron out some issues that I have observed in my tank. and I am not saying Teevee it is definatly your DSB, but rather think about it and see if there are any coincidents or factors that could lead you to suspect your DSB and don't rule it out because Bob or CM said so and don;t assume it is the DSB because I sad so.. you have to watch your tank and rule out one thing at a time.

now who's soap box was I standing on?

Steve

WHOOOO Steve O. I didn't mean to push any sensitive buttons. Just giving another "outsider" opinon. This whole hobbie is all about opinons. There is no right or wrong as we should all know. And like Quinn said there is many possabilities for ones tank that contains so many diffrent variables.

[Michel]

My 2 cents worth !
I don't have a DSB merely 1.5inches of Sugar aragonite, my tank in in quarantine (no fish) since I have had a bad ICH attack and decided to run empty for 5 weeks ( diificult on patience I tell ya) so I do not feed ... I still do water changes and guess what... cyano on the bottom ... Mind you not as much as before but still you would think that without nutrient it would have starved but no still there and I suck it out as soon as it appears so ????

[Samw]

Originally Posted by Michel

My 2 cents worth !
I don't have a DSB merely 1.5inches of Sugar aragonite, my tank in in quarantine (no fish) since I have had a bad ICH attack and decided to run empty for 5 weeks ( diificult on patience I tell ya) so I do not feed ... I still do water changes and guess what... cyano on the bottom ... Mind you not as much as before but still you would think that without nutrient it would have starved but no still there and I suck it out as soon as it appears so ????

Interesting. I have about 1.5-2" of CaribSea Seaflor aragonite. I have a high bioload and nitrates at about 50 for many months. I have a few patches of cyno growing on my live rock. I always thought it was because of my poor water quality but I see that people with excellent water quality can also get this. I do stir my sand every couple of months.

[Canadian Man]

And I have about 2 to 3 inches of the same sand and feed heavily and have many fish and I have never once had cyano in over 2 years now.

Like I said. TOOOO many factors in this equation.

[Quinn]

Pleased to announce that after I stopped feeding so much last week, cyano started to disappear. Sand is now as white or whiter than it was when I put it in.