HELP....Ginger has lots and lots of new puppies

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by lockrookie

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents

I agree. Although the difference, I suspect, is the long term goal of a specific breeding program. A breeder should also be responsible for all the pups for all the years they're around. They should be willing, and in fact demand that any dog that can't be kept is returned to them. It's a standard part of a well written contract. They should also gaurantee the pup from any genetic defects at any point in the dog's life. This means a refund or replacement pup. They should be ready and willing to help all owners for the next 15 years with anything to do with the pup. Idealy they're part of a breed club or organization, dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
I have border collies, and as a breed, they should only be bred after proving themselves on stock. This is either done via full time farm work, or placing high in at least regional open class trials. Then they are evaluated for temperment, physcal characteristics, etc, before a breeding match is made. This type of commitment and ability comes from years of experience, and takes dedication to a close to full time activity. Breeding should be left to the pros.
If someone wants to become a respected responsible breeder, then they should work under the mentorship of someone who is already there.
Breeding your pet dog, simply because you can, is wrong on many levels.

I don't expect to change many minds, but people need to think a bit harder about creating life, and what will come of those lives for the next decade and a half. There are hundreds of thousands of discarded dogs in shelters all across north america, many of them a direct result of breedings just like this. and if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
.

Um the kennel clubs don't set the breed standard they just adopt it. the breed standard is set by the original creator of the breed when it is reconized as a breed.

the breed standard defines what the dog is intended to do and the body make up that optimizes it for its intended purpose. a well writen standard will say how the required feature enhances the ability of a dog. you can think that a standard isn't important but the people that feel that are the ones who have dogs that don't meat the standard. are they still nice dogs.. yup, great for pets and companions. heck I am not even sure if mine meats the standard yet, from what I can tell he does or is close but I won't know till he hits his full high and weight, and gets all his coat. do I intend on showing him.. nope, I bought him as a companion/pet so I could care less.

as for guarentees it is pretty hard to find a life time one.. usaly it is a year or two, but I have seen some lifetime ones.. I goess it would depend a lot on the breed also, we got a two year one.. basicly will pay for medical up to the purchase price of the dog or replace the dog if it comes to that.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Steve, some breed standards may be ok, I can't keep track of all that stuff, but there are many breeds (GSDs come to mind) that have been ruined by the show ring and kennel clubs.
Coming from a Border Collie background, the KC is pretty much the mortal enemy of our dogs. I'll email you an article offline that goes into all the gory details.
As for gaurantees, genetic abnormalities should be covered for life. In BCs, if both parents are clear for CEA, then the pups are clear, and there should be no problem gauranteeing that. If a breeder won't, I'd questin whether the testing was done at all.

[foreveringlass]

This is getting ridiculous!!!! The poor guy wasn't letting his dog roam free while in heat. He planned for a litter of puppies, and ended up with many! They are very cute. Good luck with them. More pictures please.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by foreveringlass

This is getting ridiculous!!!!

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.

[foreveringlass]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.

You see the thing is, this is NOT a dog board. So why is it your job to "toast" the poor guy? The tread was about having too many puppies, and trying to get advice on how to help them and the mother. Kudos to him for asking for help! Shame on you for being so harsh and judgmental! The problem is not hobby breeders, it is the irresponsible pet owners who let their bitches run wild while in heat! I have gotten 2 dogs from breeders and have NEVER had follow up with them. Both were very caring, we were interviewed several times and ended up on a wait list forever. But that didn't insure follow up by the breeder once, not to mention the lifetime of tracking you preach! Buying from a breeder does not nessecaraly ensure that the dog will have a home it's entire life. Sometimes things happen outside controllable parameters. One can only hope that a puppy is finding a loving home for life.
Neal, Glad to hear mama is better. Did you try the pumpkin trick? Have fun with your pups.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by foreveringlass

You see the thing is, this is NOT a dog board.

And that's why I'm being nice I agree, nothing is perfect, and not all breeders are the same, or do what should be done. Some are, some aren't. One of my dogs came from a BYB before I knew any better, and he's the best dog in the world. but I needed some info fromthe breeder, and got nothing.
My other pup came from the scenario that I "preach" about, and I do have the support for the lifetime of the pup. I hope I don't need it, but it's there. And the owners of the parents both follow up to find out how the dog is developing, for future breeding concerns. Just basic responsible stuff. Can we expect that this will ever become standard? I doubt it.

And as I said, this isn't against Neal, it's a general overview designed to make people think a little more about choices. You're right, it's great of him to come here looking for help, but to me, that says he might not have been as prepared as he should have been for breeding. But it's done, and we all hope the pups get great forever homes and live long happy lives.

But in my community of peers, we're heavily involved in dogs and see the tragedies daily of inappropriate breeding. Some with our own dogs, and tons of horror stories from people we meet at trials, tournaments, etc.

I'm advocating for the dogs that can't do it for themselves, and if people's feelings get hurt along the way, I'm sorry, but they'll get over it. The dogs often suffer things they can't get over.
Again, yes, kudos to Neal for asking for help, it's a sign he's going in the right direction. However, I question the reasoning for even starting the journey, based on my previous points.
Trust me, I'm a realist, and I know the majority of people don't have a clue what I'm going on about and think I'm nuts (maybe I hang out with dogs too much), but some people are going to think about it, and maybe not breed fluffy to that cute little guy down the street that does neet tricks. And maybe we'll have a few less dogs looking for homes down the road.
I'm not trying to tell people what to do, I'm asking people to think about more than themselves. Not too much, IMO.

[Jamieh]

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Jamieh

Just so I get this all straight with the Holier than Thou breeders of the board. No one but you experts whose sole purpose is to further the genetic make-up and strive for perfection in the breed should be able to breed and sell puppies??? I wonder if the Labra-Doodle breeders are included in your clan?

Hmm, antagonism is great. Let's go with it. Each dog has a purpose (you have a dog, right?). The purpose of the dog should be maintained or improved upon in a breeding program. We'll use Bostons, since this is what the thread is about. Bostons were originally bred for the show ring. In this case, true afficiandos of Boston Terriers would assert that only top placing dogs in nationally recongnized shows are bred. This keeps the true nature of the breed intact. We also want to weed out cataracts (both juvenile and adult type), cherry eye, luxating patellas, deafness, heart murmur, and allergies. Parents and grand-parents checked and cleared? Right. Next. Temperment. Do all the lines of this litter have the desired temperment? Hope so, I see lots of dogs discarded for temperment issues, and repeat breedings done to create more problem dogs. Is the breeder prepared to be responsible for the life of all pups, following up as needed?
anything doodles are just wrong, not even gonna get into that.

But holier than thou, not so much. Holier than you? I'd say absolutely. I'm standing up for dogs that don't get a say in any of this, you're just shooting your mouth off on the Internet. If you've got some facts, bring them, if you've just got a mouth, go away.

[Jamieh]

My turn now. See you have a Bichon and you have a Shih-Tzu. Purpose of both to 90% of world is family pet. Both have some problems in the breed such as nasal in the Shih-Tzu. Cross breed them and you usually end up with a great family pet with few health issues. But to you perfect people this should not be allowed and little Sally should have Shih-Tzu with bad nasal problems. Not to mention how few actual genetic breeders there are vs how many people only want a good healthy family pet.