LED lights

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ok so the first patent was applied for on dec 2003. the 2002 one was a supporting doccument. in there prior art statment they say there are many systems availble producing light capable of sustaining marine life, but none using LEDs as the light source. so that is a valid point.

one thing I have been wondering about is the anti trust laws pertaining to monopolies.. I think for them to get around this they would have to grant all licencing rights to companies willing to pay there fee.

proving prior art in court seams to be the only way to bust this patent but.. it costs 180.00us just to file your prior art for them to concider and prior art has to be certified by a qualified inspector at the time. so pictures of systems over our tanks 10 years ago doesn't cut it.

I would like to see this busted as much as anyone but I think that most big companies are just waiting for review years to see if they renew, or waiting till it expiers as it is to hard and very very expensive to fight a patent that is inplace.

Steve

Yes, the fact that no commercially available systems were out is a valid statement but you have to ask why that is? Is it because nobody thought of it or it wasn't an obvious application or because the costs would have been to high. The PFO solaris fixtures were thousands of dollars when they came out in 2005 or 2006. imagine what a decent LED fixture would have cost in 2003 or 2004? Would a 3' or 4' light fixture costing $10,000 have been a viable product? The fact nothing was commercially available does not make the idea patentable. Should I be able to patent a personal rocketship? No personal rocketships are available now because the costs would be astronomical (sorry for the pun), not because it is a new and patentable idea.

Apparently there are some moves afoot in the US for a third party submission to review the patent but it's not all public yet. It's tied into the recent request for prior art references on reefbuilders. There is some discussion of it on nano-reef as well. I'm happy to lend whatever support they need for that if I can. I think I should probably start a new thread for that later today when I have time...

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

or because the costs would have been to high. The PFO solaris fixtures were thousands of dollars when they came out in 2005 or 2006. ...

ya they were a couple K, but about 1 to 1.5K of that was probably profit for PFO. I actualy think PFO was stupid and let greed run there release of the solaris, as they new there was a patent aplication but they decided to cash in on it while they could befor the patent was granted, which is viable, but instead of just stopping production when the patent was granted they decided to figh it as the solaris was a cash cow for them..

they were using exhisting extrusions which cost them next to nothing, they were using off shore LEDs which are a fraction of the price of the cree. and they were driving them at lower levels which reduced the requirment for a heat sink. I would be willing to bet including labour there cost was under 500 bucks, and they probably sold the one unit to the stores for about 1700 and then the stores resold for about 2 to 2.5K

If they wouldn't have had as many problems they did with the cheep LEDs burning out they would have made a killing, but they had to many warenty issues which ate into there profit a little to much.

Steve

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ya they were a couple K, but about 1 to 1.5K of that was probably profit for PFO. I actualy think PFO was stupid and let greed run there release of the solaris, as they new there was a patent aplication but they decided to cash in on it while they could befor the patent was granted, which is viable, but instead of just stopping production when the patent was granted they decided to figh it as the solaris was a cash cow for them..

they were using exhisting extrusions which cost them next to nothing, they were using off shore LEDs which are a fraction of the price of the cree. and they were driving them at lower levels which reduced the requirment for a heat sink. I would be willing to bet including labour there cost was under 500 bucks, and they probably sold the one unit to the stores for about 1700 and then the stores resold for about 2 to 2.5K

If they wouldn't have had as many problems they did with the cheep LEDs burning out they would have made a killing, but they had to many warenty issues which ate into there profit a little to much.

Steve

I don't think that is a completely fair assessment. PFO used Phillips Luxeon emitters in their fixtures from day one. Now I have spent around $1200 to $1300 so far to buy parts for my DIY 48" fixture and that is with very good volume pricing through the nano-reef group buy for alot of it and also includes a free housing and cheap used heatsinks from eBay.

So I would be surprised if the cost of materials for a Solaris fixture was significantly less than that in 2006 even with their crappy excuses for heatsinks (which were probably responsible for the emitters burning out). now that also doesn't account for the R&D work to create a commercial fixture, tooling for bespoke parts if necessary, labour (even if it is cheap in China), shipping from China (not cheap), and any safety/electrical certification they required in North America. And then you have your operations cost in North America for offices, warehouses, staff etc.

Now normal retail markup is 40% so if the retail was $3500 then the wholesale price from PFO was probably $2100. I don't think it is unusual for a manufacturer to have a markup of 100% over the cost of materials therefore I don't think the pricing was wildly out of line. You may want the manufacturers to have razor thin margins but they won't bother if they can't make any money.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

I don't think that is a completely fair assessment. PFO used Phillips Luxeon emitters in their fixtures from day one. Now I have spent around $1200 to $1300 so far to buy parts for my DIY 48" fixture and that is with very good volume pricing through the nano-reef group buy for alot of it and also includes a free housing and cheap used heatsinks from eBay.

.

how many LED's you putting on that sucker ?? I think I am spending 600.00 total on a 30" long unit using 40 degree optics, and nothing was free or cheep..

the luxton stars were 1 watt leds, and at the time they were making the solaris they were cheeper than we can get the crees for, but that doesn't matter much.. what we get as a group buy is nothing compared to what a company can get things for. I know when I had my company going and I was looking at buying a significant quantity of something if I couldn't get it for about 1/3 of the retail price I would shop elsewhere. I never had to look around much. generaly I found there are 3 price ranges, retail, wholesale, and distrubitor. I am working on a deal right now that will get me distrubitor+ pricing on a produce that the rights to BA/AB with a few exclusions. nothing to do with the aquarium industry but the structure is the same.

Basicly I know a guy who has the canadian distrubution rights to a line of products, he has a few avenues that he sells directly to in a specific industry. I can sell to any industry but the one he sells directly to and my cost is his cost plus 10%. when I sell to a company I am oblagated to sell at a lower price than if I sold directly to the public otherwise why would a company buy the product to resell. so lets pick a number of 100 bucks. I buy the product for 110.00 because of my deal, so for wholesale I sell at 180 to 200. for retail I would charge 280.

with the group buys we are involved with in the diy fish tank things, we are dealing with retailers so the price we get is going to be better than if you go to a store and buy a product, but not anywhere near wholesale and distrubitor. now what would be ideal is if we had some one with a reg company that could contact cree sales directly and order a large volume. you would probably see the price down about 2 bucks a LED. same thing would apply to the heat sink, if I knew I would use 100 30X10 heat sinks, you could probably get at least 50% off the regular price and if you were to do some digging and find the smelter that actualy makes them and they are a generic die, not customer owned you could get them cheeper.

at anyrate I digress. the company PFO makes it, sends it to there distrubitors and then the distrubitors sell to the stores so something that costs 3500 in the store probably cost the store about 2500-3000 (usaly less mark up on expensive stuff), would cost the distrubitor rep about 1500 to 2000, and the company about 700 to 1000. if there made off shore then you can cut that number way down. I am just pulling numbers out of my a$$ here, but the idea is that there are usaly 3 or 4 steps along the way and usaly each one of thoes steps is 50 to 100% mark up on pricy things, and more on cheep things.

Steve

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

how many LED's you putting on that sucker ?? I think I am spending 600.00 total on a 30" long unit using 40 degree optics, and nothing was free or cheep..

the luxton stars were 1 watt leds, and at the time they were making the solaris they were cheeper than we can get the crees for, but that doesn't matter much.. what we get as a group buy is nothing compared to what a company can get things for. I know when I had my company going and I was looking at buying a significant quantity of something if I couldn't get it for about 1/3 of the retail price I would shop elsewhere. I never had to look around much. generaly I found there are 3 price ranges, retail, wholesale, and distrubitor. I am working on a deal right now that will get me distrubitor+ pricing on a produce that the rights to BA/AB with a few exclusions. nothing to do with the aquarium industry but the structure is the same.

Basicly I know a guy who has the canadian distrubution rights to a line of products, he has a few avenues that he sells directly to in a specific industry. I can sell to any industry but the one he sells directly to and my cost is his cost plus 10%. when I sell to a company I am oblagated to sell at a lower price than if I sold directly to the public otherwise why would a company buy the product to resell. so lets pick a number of 100 bucks. I buy the product for 110.00 because of my deal, so for wholesale I sell at 180 to 200. for retail I would charge 280.

with the group buys we are involved with in the diy fish tank things, we are dealing with retailers so the price we get is going to be better than if you go to a store and buy a product, but not anywhere near wholesale and distrubitor. now what would be ideal is if we had some one with a reg company that could contact cree sales directly and order a large volume. you would probably see the price down about 2 bucks a LED. same thing would apply to the heat sink, if I knew I would use 100 30X10 heat sinks, you could probably get at least 50% off the regular price and if you were to do some digging and find the smelter that actualy makes them and they are a generic die, not customer owned you could get them cheeper.

at anyrate I digress. the company PFO makes it, sends it to there distrubitors and then the distrubitors sell to the stores so something that costs 3500 in the store probably cost the store about 2500-3000 (usaly less mark up on expensive stuff), would cost the distrubitor rep about 1500 to 2000, and the company about 700 to 1000. if there made off shore then you can cut that number way down. I am just pulling numbers out of my a$$ here, but the idea is that there are usaly 3 or 4 steps along the way and usaly each one of thoes steps is 50 to 100% mark up on pricy things, and more on cheep things.

Steve

I'm going to use 80 to 85 LEDs and start with 60 degree optics but I have some 80 and 40 as well to try and may mix and match a bit to have some higher and lower PAR areas.

As for the Solaris, they were 3 watt luxeons. Here's a review of the first units:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2#h8

I did a bit of searching and it looks like the bare emitters sold for $3.45 each in quantities of 10,000 or more back in 2006. That doesn't include the cost of any MCPCB and mounting. I see where you are coming from and the reality is probably somewhere in between your estimate and mine. But there is more to a product then just the cost of the parts and while PFO may have been making a healthy gross margin on each fixture the volumes were probably low and then you still have to factor in all the overhead. So while expensive, the prices were probably in line for an expensive new technology that will sell in low numbers. I remember when 42" plasma TVs first came out in 1990 or so and they cost in excess of $25,000.

[Ron99]

I just realized my cost estimate is off as I have only spent about $1000 so far but will probably need another $100 worth of stuff to finish it off.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

I'm going to use 80 to 85 LEDs and start with 60 degree optics but I have some 80 and 40 as well to try and may mix and match a bit to have some higher and lower PAR areas.

what are you using for spacing? I just realized your tank is 18" front to back.. mine is 12" so that is going to add an extra row or two for ya.. so that why you need a lot more than I do.

you one thing I don't like about the DIY leds is how ugly the bottoms look. I wish there was an easy way to cover that up so you don't see all the wires.

are you making an enclosur for yours or just leaving the heat sink bare?

Steve

[Ron99]

I figured 4 rows 3" apart and 2" to 2.25" spacing in each row. I may also include a few UV LEDs along the centerline. I haven't laid it out yet. I finally received my last supplies including some Berquist adhesive thermal pads. That will be easier then drilling and tapping 160 holes

I have a Hamilton light fixture housing (I think it may have been a MH fixture once) I plan to use to enclose it all and it has a bottom cover with acrylic splash shield