LED lights

[Canadian]

Hi Steve,

I know about nanoreef being THE site for LED info. I don't really have any particular interest in LED right now so I can't be bothered to stay abreast of the ins and outs. From what I have read there does appear to be some disagreement about optimal designs (for example whether or not it is better to over, under, or normal drive them). Given the still experimental nature of LED lighting over reef tanks I'll let the manufacturers figure things out and people such as yourself continue experimenting before I get too worked up about it. I'd love to change to LED ASAP but it looks to be at least another year before we start to see some quality, reliable, readily available, and attractive LED fixtures hit the reefing market.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Canadian

Hi Steve,

but it looks to be at least another year before we start to see some quality, reliable, readily available, and attractive LED fixtures hit the reefing market.

the way the company that holds the patent is going I don't think we'll ever get anything nice.. well at least for 20 years when the patent runs out.

Steve

[Ron99]

+1 to what Steve said above. That info from Coral Sky may be slightly biased as they are obviously marketing a product without optics. As Steve said the cost of the optics is small and they help with concentrating the light so you get better PAR deeper in the tank.

As for the patent, I think all it needs is to be challenged in court and invalidated. I can't see how that patent was issued as they found nothing new or revolutionary or surprising that merits patentability. There was also a bunch of prior art that the patent examiners obviously didn't see. PFO was in financial difficulty before Orbitec went after them so they obviously didn't have the finances to fight it out in court. Hopefully somebody can do that at some point.

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by Ron99

+1 to what Steve said above. That info from Coral Sky may be slightly biased as they are obviously marketing a product without optics. As Steve said the cost of the optics is small and they help with concentrating the light so you get better PAR deeper in the tank.

As for the patent, I think all it needs is to be challenged in court and invalidated. I can't see how that patent was issued as they found nothing new or revolutionary or surprising that merits patentability. There was also a bunch of prior art that the patent examiners obviously didn't see. PFO was in financial difficulty before Orbitec went after them so they obviously didn't have the finances to fight it out in court. Hopefully somebody can do that at some point.

If optics are inexpensive why do you think a company would produce a fixture without them? They obviously have reason to believe that not having them provides some type of performance benefit. I believe the new Vertex LED fixture also lacks optics. So there are obviously some companies performing some R&D that leads them to believe LEDs without optics provides a performance, efficiency, or cost advantage. The application of LED technology is still in its infancy in this hobby. Over time I guess we'll see how things pan out. It wasn't that long ago that MH reflectors were designed with the intent of focusing the light and we got to a point where fixtures were producing fairly acute hot spots. Then reflector design transitioned to providing an even spread of light without hot spots.

[StirCrazy]

simple, they want to make more money.. using optice relates to more LEDs, the more LEDs they have to use the more expensive to build.

As for the patent, it was filed in tow parts in 2002 and 2003, and awarded in 2007

here it is

Overview
A method and apparatus of lighting a marine habitat for growth utilizing an LED light system. The light system includes an LED light source, a power supply for such light source and a controller for controlling the activation status and the intensity of the LED light source.

Claims
What is claimed is:

1. A combination marine habitat and lighting system therefor comprising:
a marine habitat having an open top defined by a top edge and
a lighting system including: a housing connectable to said top edge to substantially cover said open top, said housing further including an inner side facing said open top when said housing is connected to said top edge and an opposite outer side;an LED light source mounted to the inner side of said housing, said LED light source comprising at least one light engine having a plurality of individual LEDs capable of providing light at a wavelength from about 380 nm to about 690 nm; a power supply sufficient to drive said LEDs; a controller connected with said power source for controlling the activation status and the intensity of one or more of said individual LEDs; and a cooling system provided in said housing.
2. The combination of claim 1 wherein said LED light source, when activated, is sufficient to support marine growth.
3. The combination of claim 1 wherein said LED light source includes at least one of chip-based, organic or discreet LEDs.
4. The combination of claim 1 wherein each of said light engines is capable of providing light intensity of from 0 to 1000 micro mols per square meter per second.
5. A lighting system for a marine habitat of the type having an open top defined by a top edge, said lighting system comprising:
a housing connectable to said top edge to substantially cover said open top, said housing further including an inner side facing said open top when said housing is connected to said top edge and an opposite outer side;
an LED light source mounted to the inner side of said housing, said LED light source comprising at least one light engine having a plurality of individual LEDs capable of providing light at a wavelength from about 380 nm to about 690 nm;
a power supply sufficient to drive said LEDs;
a controller connected with said power source for controlling the activation status and the intensity of one or more of said individual LEDs; and a cooling system provided in said housing.
6. The lighting system of claim 5 wherein said LED light source, when activated, is sufficient to support marine growth.
7. The lighting system of claim 5 wherein said LED light source includes at least one of chip-based, organic or discreet LEDs. 8. The combination of claim 5 wherein each of said light engines is capable of providing light intensity of from 0 to 1000 micro mols per square meter per second.



As you can see any system built that is desirable to us would be infringing on the copyright.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this one.. a few guys had a good idea and jumped on it. it was tried with skimmers also but was filed to late.

No I don't think this company had any desire to build lights for fish tanks, but I do think they want some one else to and pay them royalties, or lease the right to make stuff from them. this way they can get money for nothing.

they will have this pattent untill 2027 but have to make utility payments at 4 years, 8 years and 12 years. if either of these are missed then the patent is open. so the earliest anyone would be able to sell a LED system is 2011 and only if they miss there payment, other wise we have to wait till 2015 and see if they make that one.

makes me wish I would have applied for this myself in 99 when I was playing with LEDs over tanks.

one other thing to note, in my reading I discovered there is no way around this patent by selling DIY kits in there entirity, and if you build them your self you are able to be sued by the company from infringment on there patent, but seeing as the cost of dammages they would get from one individual compared to what it would cost them to sue.. they wouldn't go after an individual.

Steve

[Ron99]

Sorry but I have to disagree. There is no invention in that patent. Aquarists have been using light sources to light reef tanks and grow corals for long before Orbitec came along. Jsut because a new type of light comes along does not mean that it is a novel invention to use that light for aquariums. Has anybody been able to patent LEDs as replacements for home light bulbs? If somebody invents a new type of light tomorrow; say a bioluminescent film of some sort should we patent that for use in aquariums? In order to patent there should be some invention. They would have to show that the LEDs surprisingly did something that other light sources don't for coral growth etc. and it does not look like they have done that. It is an inappropriately issued patent as far as I can tell and if challenged in court would likely be invalidated? Why have Orbitec not gone after Aquailluminations? They probably just smelled blood with PFO who were in financial difficulties due to poor products and returns and warranty claims etc. and are using that to try to scare others since they "defeated" PFO (pretty much financially rather then legally). That's my take on it anyhow. There is no invention in that patent as the use of LEDs for aquariums is obvious to anyone skilled in the art. It HAS to be non-obvious to be patentable.

In fact take a look at this old post at glassbox design; particularly the last part. perhaps we should get some people together and send a submission to the USPTO asking to have the patent invalidated.

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/pate...ults-recourse/

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry but I have to disagree. There is no invention in that patent. Aquarists have been using light sources to light reef tanks and grow corals for long before Orbitec came along. Jsut because a new type of light comes along does not mean that it is a novel invention to use that light for aquariums. Has anybody been able to patent LEDs as replacements for home light bulbs? If somebody invents a new type of light tomorrow; say a bioluminescent film of some sort should we patent that for use in aquariums? In order to patent there should be some invention. They would have to show that the LEDs surprisingly did something that other light sources don't for coral growth etc. and it does not look like they have done that. It is an inappropriately issued patent as far as I can tell and if challenged in court would likely be invalidated? Why have Orbitec not gone after Aquailluminations? They probably just smelled blood with PFO who were in financial difficulties due to poor products and returns and warranty claims etc. and are using that to try to scare others since they "defeated" PFO (pretty much financially rather then legally). That's my take on it anyhow. There is no invention in that patent as the use of LEDs for aquariums is obvious to anyone skilled in the art. It HAS to be non-obvious to be patentable.

In fact take a look at this old post at glassbox design; particularly the last part. perhaps we should get some people together and send a submission to the USPTO asking to have the patent invalidated.

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/pate...ults-recourse/

They haven't gone after AI, from what I've read, because AI has "partnered" with them and is paying Orbitec a licensing fee. However, i can't verify the veracity of that statement.

[Crytone]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

the way the company that holds the patent is going I don't think we'll ever get anything nice.. well at least for 20 years when the patent runs out.

Steve

From what I read recently the company who owns the patent (Orbitec) is filing for a continuation of their patent. This is where people are stepping in and submitting a Third-Party Submission against Orbitec to hopefully stop their monopoly. If they can prove "prior art" (basically meaning someone was using this idea before Orbitec claims they invented it) then they are hoping to overturn the patent. Big problem though is Orbitec has big pockets- iirc they got money from NASA for something. I believe money speaks a lot in the patent biz.

The patent is pretty broad too. Summed up it's basically "adjustable/dimming LED lights over an aquarium". Did they invent the LED? No. Did they invent the dimming/adjusting of the LEDs? No, PWM's have been around a long while for this purpose.. Did they invent the aquarium? Of course not! So All they claim they invented was the IDEA of putting an adjustable LED over an aquarium! Orbitec doesn't seem to be doing anything substantial with this patent either- except suing everyone who infringes it.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Crytone

From what I read recently the company who owns the patent (Orbitec) is filing for a continuation of their patent. This is where people are stepping in and submitting a Third-Party Submission against Orbitec to hopefully stop their monopoly. If they can prove "prior art" (basically meaning someone was using this idea before Orbitec claims they invented it) then they are hoping to overturn the patent. Big problem though is Orbitec has big pockets- iirc they got money from NASA for something. I believe money speaks a lot in the patent biz.

The patent is pretty broad too. Summed up it's basically "adjustable/dimming LED lights over an aquarium". Did they invent the LED? No. Did they invent the dimming/adjusting of the LEDs? No, PWM's have been around a long while for this purpose.. Did they invent the aquarium? Of course not! So All they claim they invented was the IDEA of putting an adjustable LED over an aquarium! Orbitec doesn't seem to be doing anything substantial with this patent either- except suing everyone who infringes it.

My experience comes from pharmaceutical patents but in order to patent something it has to be something novel and non-obvious. Orbitec's patent is neither and never should have been allowed (however, inappropriate patents get issued all the time and subsequently invalidated). lighting aquariums with different types and sources of light has been going on for a long time so LEDs are a natural and obvious continuation of that. Changing colour spectrum has been done by using different bulbs and combinations of bulbs before so nothing new there. Timing of lighting has been done for a long time so nothing new there too. So I really believe it is a patent that shouldn't stand for those reasons alone, let alone the prior art. Orbitec invented nothing.

Originally Posted by Canadian

If optics are inexpensive why do you think a company would produce a fixture without them? They obviously have reason to believe that not having them provides some type of performance benefit. I believe the new Vertex LED fixture also lacks optics. So there are obviously some companies performing some R&D that leads them to believe LEDs without optics provides a performance, efficiency, or cost advantage. The application of LED technology is still in its infancy in this hobby. Over time I guess we'll see how things pan out. It wasn't that long ago that MH reflectors were designed with the intent of focusing the light and we got to a point where fixtures were producing fairly acute hot spots. Then reflector design transitioned to providing an even spread of light without hot spots.

Money. Without optics you can use fewer LEDs spread out further. Cheaper to produce and hopefully cheaper to buy. It all depends on the performance and PAR you want. If you want high PAR deeper in your tank you need optics. If you only plan to have higher light corals near the top of the tank then no optics will most likely be good for you. But the optics make a big difference in concentrating the light to get good PAR at greater depth.

BTW, those Maxspect lights seem to produce significant hotspots below the 30W LEDs that may be a concern for some tanks and affect coral placement. The other issue that seems to come up is that the LEDs used in the Maxspect fixtures are not as durable as the Cree emitters. Maxspect is suggesting replacement of the LEDs in 18 to 24 months which will not be cheap. The Crees should last for 5+ years if they are cooled adequately.