Do you believe equality is beneficial or detrimental to society?

[marie]

Originally Posted by Myka

I disagree. I believe men are superior, they just aren't allowed to be anymore.

mmmmmkay, I knew there was a reason I haven't been posting on canreef as much....I think I'll go back and read my book now

[wolf_bluejay]

I remember years ago attending a conference on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Just prior to this I was running a small company, and grew up with most of my family being business owners.

Anyways, I had a little experience with a group of students working towards a degree in social work. As group we were to decide between 2 people who we would want to hire -- The "job" was working with disadvantaged youth. The two people to pick from were A) 35 year old with Masters in social work, 5 years work experience work with youths, white male and B) 30 year old "ethnic" female with grade 10 only, 5 years experience as an assistant in womens shelter.


Now, from the point of view of a pretend manager/owner/whatever -- it was pretty clear that A was a better person for the job -- nothing do with race, gender,age whatever. Just had more education, and more relevant experience. Simple though process -- who is going to be the best and getting the job done and done well.

I was called foul names by the rest of the group. What about the woman, she might have some real "life" experience, she might not had had proper access to education, she might have never had the chance to blah,blah blah.

The sad part in all of this -- If I am running a business that my livelihood depends on, I DON"T CARE about how rough or great your life has been, I DON"T CARE what your gender,race,age is. I car about who is best for the job.
Somehow, the private sector has been branded as been "good ole white boys clubs", with the need to legislate rules in to "fix" the problem. It seems to me that a lot of these rules seem to put more racism/sexism in than was there to start.

Yes, women rarely got management when they were 20-30ish year old. But, on the other hand -- In a long term high stress, high learning curve job some owners didn't what to go though getting a mat leave replacement just before the big project is due in. Not nice, but it did happen.

I really dislike the "affirmative action" laws, as I think that my local fireperson should be able to haul 50lbs of hose up a ladder regardless if the are male or female. If you drive heavy haulers for a mine, guess what, women are the preferred gender. They driver better and the trucks have less downtime, if as a guy you drive like a twit, you get replaced.

Best person for the job, regardless of gender/race/age/religion/etc. In fact, I wish there was a way to exclude such information from the hiring process completely.

Sorry for the long winded response, my wife is a Sociologist, so these things are normal conversation around my house

[BlueAbyss]

Now this is what I was waiting for in this discussion...

Originally Posted by Myka

I have a theory that equality is detrimental to marriages and crime in particular (among many other things). I was wondering any of you would come up with this idea on your own.

Speaking IMO, I believe that by society trying to push equality (among other things) on everyone that men are feeling more inferior than they have in the past. Men have a natural want/need of "me look after woman". With women supposedly having equality in particular place like the workplace men aren't given what used to be their man-time where they go to work at a "manly job" working with men talking about whatever (godawful) things they want to. I really believe men have this need. Now women are barging about their workplace, now they can't talk about godawful things, and can't "be men". This gets taken home where their wife - now a journey[wo]man welder - makes more money than him. Wife wears the pants, and bosses the man around the house. Now man feels like child, which is exactly what woman treats him like. There goes the sex-life, who wants to have sex with a child? (ok some do, but that's not this topic) Without a sex-life the marriage doesn't do so well. (unless you're Mennonite, but they get manly men - kind of)

Well, men have this sort of 'alpha male' thing going on, where they need to be the king of their own domain. Whether that domain is at the office ('the boss'), at home ('the breadwinner'), in sports ('the MVP'), etc... it doesn't matter, we definitely need to FEEL superior, whether in truth we hold a high position in society, in the home, whatever. So, what happens when the wife wears the pants? "Fine, I'll stay home and cook dinner, clean the house, wash and fold the laundry, etc, and YOU can be 'the breadwinner'." Nobody ever really wants to be equal, they want to be SUPERIOR! (Even women ) So, I'd say your theory is probably not far off. Take it from an 'unequal male'

Originally Posted by Myka

In the case of crime, everyone's "equal" right? People are taught from a young age to be equal to eachother which creates a society that disrespects authority because, "hey they're equal, right?"

Slippery slope, isn't it?

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

The "job" was working with disadvantaged youth. The two people to pick from were A) 35 year old with Masters in social work, 5 years work experience work with youths, white male and B) 30 year old "ethnic" female with grade 10 only, 5 years experience as an assistant in womens shelter.

Now, from the point of view of a pretend manager/owner/whatever -- it was pretty clear that A was a better person for the job -- nothing do with race, gender,age whatever. Just had more education, and more relevant experience. Simple though process -- who is going to be the best and getting the job done and done well.

What sort of disadvantaged youth? In what sort of setting? There is going to be a lot of things to look at when making that sort of decision... I can think of a number of situations where B would be a much better choice. I agree that A is more qualified, but would he bring the right... oh, I dunno, let's use the word 'vision', to the youth? Sooo much to ponder here, glad I'll (probably) never have to make that sort of decision. Anyone is qualified enough to stock shelves and dig ditches (though the latter is generally left to machinery these days).

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

The sad part in all of this -- If I am running a business that my livelihood depends on, I DON"T CARE about how rough or great your life has been, I DON"T CARE what your gender,race,age is. I care about who is best for the job.
Somehow, the private sector has been branded as been "good ole white boys clubs", with the need to legislate rules in to "fix" the problem.

If you're running a business that your livelihood depends on, you shouldn't care about those things. You should be focused on what is best for the business... but often times people are blinded by beliefs, stereotypes, and other insidious generalities. If everyone was truly equal, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

If I had to choose between Fifty Cent and Eminem, I'd choose Eminem simply because I can relate to him better. They are both equally good rappers (I don't like rap, for the record), both come from crappy backgrounds or 'the 'hood' or whatever. But even so, I would hire Eminem over Fity because I 'know where he comes from'... this is a really vague idea to try to get across, so I'll stop there.

I feel that in some cases there was a problem, for both minorities and women. The problem hasn't been solved by legislating that you now have to hire often less qualified (and therefore probably less useful) employees that fill the 'female or minority' slot, which in some cases is going to perpetuate stereotypes and make the overall problem worse.

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

If you drive heavy haulers for a mine, guess what, women are the preferred gender. They driver better and the trucks have less downtime, if as a guy you drive like a twit, you get replaced.

This is true. I also know a couple lady truckers that do long hauls, and I guarantee they are the safest truckers on the road. At least, I feel safer...

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

... I think that my local fireperson should be able to haul 50lbs of hose up a ladder regardless if they are male or female.

... maybe why there are no female fire fighters in my town, had never thought of that before (never really questioned it, I don't know many women that could drag my dead weight while wearing fire gear)... there are few (if any) women working underground at the mine here but a fair number working in places like the machine shop, labs, security etc.

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

... I wish there was a way to exclude such information from the hiring process completely.

But that would make the hiring process equal and just. Can't have that, can we.

[StirCrazy]

taking your fire fighting example here is a good one. In the millitary we had to a an anual express test to assess ouf fitness level. so for a 40 year old man, you have to be able to do the shuttle run for 5min, 17 pushups and 19 situps in 60 sec, as well as a grip test that I believe you had to get 120 total.

so for a 40 year old woman you have to do the shuttle run for 2.5 min, 12 pushups I believe, 14 situps and 65 total for the grip test (numbers might be out a little but work for the example)

now both man and woman are expected to do the exact same job, carry the same equipment, and be able to support there group the same.

so why the differance in standards? Well aparently the female body can't do the same "work" as the male body. ok fine, so why then do they allow them to do the same jobs as the men which require that same "work" with out them being able to meet the same standard?

now I don't have anything against women doing the jobs, and I had several women work for me over the years with out issues, but why are the standards not the same. especialy for people who are there to protect our nation?

Steve

[Myka]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

so why the differance in standards? Well aparently the female body can't do the same "work" as the male body. ok fine, so why then do they allow them to do the same jobs as the men which require that same "work" with out them being able to meet the same standard?

I agree 100%! Different standards are ridiculous. If the women's standards are "good enough", then they should be the same for the men. Making excuses for someone based on their sex, religion, race, etc is absolutely ridiculous. I believe in the Darwin theory...the tough and smart will rise! Don't get me started on Social Assistance and/or obese people....

I work in a male-dominated industry, and while I can keep up to the men (and outwork many) I know I can't work this hard for many more years. I need to look for a more long-term solution.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Myka

Don't get me started on Social Assistance and/or obese people....

hey watch the fat comments
Obese is a bad tearm, with a lose defination as it is bassed on weight for a given high. If you go buy BMI then any body builder is obese. a good example is when I was young and befor I wrected my knees in the mid 90's I was 235lbs, but acording to BMI I should have been 185 as a max so I was obese, but I has a 32" waist and a 7% body fat so how was I obese. now that I am older and have bad knees my waist has increased and I have gotten my weight down into the 220's again.. went up to almost 300 at one point befor and after my knee surgerys.

but at thoes weights I could still pass the physical requirments and keep up to the younger kids

Steve

[marie]

To pigeon hole humans is to do them a disservice, to say that all men are stronger/smarter is to deny a significant portion of the human race a happy life.
We all have our strengths and our weaknesses and they are in no way gender specific

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.

[wolf_bluejay]

One of me and the wife's favorite debates is the differences in the brain between the genders.

There is a LOT of research done on the different brain chemistry/design. Generally speaking the theory goes like this: In the cave man days, men were hunters, we could focus on the task at hand (and not much else) very well. Whereas women being more gatherers and raising children would need to focus on many things at a time, even if not more intently.

Now, this does lead to some interesting noticeable differences in what jobs each gender is better at, and strangely it doesn't align very well with the stereotypical jobs. IE: men would make good high stress leaders (submarine commander, emergency response, and business managers in high stress fields). We would not be good at anything that involves organizational skills or anything that requires attention to detail -- professional driving, auto mechanic, or managing a large number of staff in a non-high stress job.

Women are pretty much the opposite, great at secretarial work (not to be offensive, but it involves multi-tasking and organization), large scale management (100+ employees), and anything involving long term planning.

It is just strange that instead of the gender differences getting used to the best advantage, some stereotypes seem to persist.
As for things like underground mining -- the sad truth is that very few underground miners will actually go down to work while a woman in underground. It is considered bad luck and they fear that everytime a woman goes under, someone will die. It is sad because in a industrial setting, women have VERY FEW accidents as the adherence to safety protocols is near perfect.
I spent some time doing investigations for industrial accidents, women are more safe than men, and by a whole lot. Seems there is a lot less of "I'm tough so I can do it" and "It will never happen to me". The one I do like to see is that men will let their co-workers break safety rule to get the job done, were women will almost always call you out for doing something stupid.

Of course, I married a feminist sociologist, I should have known what I was in for hint: that means I don't wear the pants in my family.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by marie

To pigeon hole humans is to do them a disservice, to say that all men are stronger/smarter is to deny a significant portion of the human race a happy life.
We all have our strengths and our weaknesses and they are in no way gender specific

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.

Marie, I don't think anyone is pigeonholling anyone here, am I don't beleave this is anything for women to get defencive about. on average is what we are talking about and yes there are the exception, I had one girl who worked for me who could out lift 3/4 of the men and was a very good worker, I also had men that were built like twigs and couldn't do the very intence physical work, so yes there are exceptions both ways. but when it comes to the norm there are very distinctive physical and mental differances between men and women which I don't feel is a bad thing or a good thing it just is. the debate is how these differances are addresses in the real world.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

ok so lets get some hard facts down for the differances. this is from a large scale medical study

PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES


There are several obvious differences between men and women, including the following:

1. An average man is taller and heavier than an average woman.
2. Men have more bodily hair than women do, especially on the chest and extremities
3. Women are more sensitive to sound than men
4. Men are over 30% stronger than women, especially in the upper body. Although many feminists cannot face this fact, females simply do not have the strength or endurance necessary to be, for example, effective combat soldiers.
5. On average, girls begin puberty changing approximately two years before boys.
6. Men have larger hearts and lungs, and their higher levels of testosterone cause them to produce greater amounts of red blood cells
7. Differences in intake and delivery of oxygen translates into some aspects of performance: when a man is jogging at about 50% of his capacity, a woman will need to work at over 70% of her capacity to keep up with him.
8. Female fertility decreases after age 35, ending with menopause, but men are capable of making children even when very old.
9. Men’s skin has more collagen and sebum, which makes it thicker and oilier than women’s skin
10. Women generally have a greater body fat percentage than men.
11. Men and women have different levels of certain hormones; for example, men have a higher concentration of androgens such as testosterone, while women have a higher concentration of estrogens.
12. An average male brain has approximately 4% more cells and 100 grams more brain tissue than an average female brain. This is not connected with intelligence! Research points to no overall difference in intelligence between males and females. However, both sexes have similar brain weight to body weight ratios.
13. In men, the second digit is often shorter than the fourth digit, while in females the second tends to be longer than the fourth
14. Men have better distance vision and depth perception, and usually better vision in lighted environments. Women have better night vision, see better at the red end of the light spectrum, and have better visual memory.


Diseases


1. More men than women become infected with HIV.
2. More males are likely to be diagnosed with tuberculosis then females.
3. Women are less likely to suffer from cardiovascular disease.
4. Men are more likely to suffer from cancer.
5. Women are more likely to suffer from osteoarthritis, osteoporosis and blindness


MENTAL DIFFERENCES


Brain differences: Several studies have proven significant differences between male and female brains. Differences are located in both the primitive regions, and the newer parts of the brain called neocortex – the higher brain regions.
Men and women process information differently because of differences in a portion of the brain called the splenium, which is much larger in women than in men, and has more brain-wave activity.

Intelligence: Many small-scale studies report differences not repeated in larger studies which, or course, caused argues and confusions. Several researches done on volunteers have proven that there is no significant difference in the average intelligence level of men and women.

However, there are some slight differences:

1. An average man performs better on tests of spatial and mathematical ability, while women perform better on tests of verbal ability and memory.
2. Men’s IQ has greater variance, which means that there are more men than women in the very high and very low IQ groups.

Behavioral differences:

There are some proven behavioral differences between men and women. and the most common are:

1. Men are more physically aggressive.
2. Men "Cencered" more.
3. Women are less likely to successfully commit suicide, but more likely to attempt it.
4. Men have more positive attitudes about sex then women do.
5. Men are more prone to taking risks.
6. Women express their emotions more readily and experience a greater intensity of emotion.

Differences in mental health:

Several mental illnesses are proven to be differently distributed between genders.

The most common include:

1. Depression – Several researches have shown that this disease affects females twice as often as it does males. Serotonin is a chemical required in the brain for “happy mood maintenance”. The rate of synthesis and level of serotonin in the blood are significantly higher in men than in women. These differences may help explain why depression is more common in women. Both depression and panic disorder rates, which are two disorders with higher rates in women than men, may be tied to childhood experiences of abuse.
2. Schizophrenia - Although this disorder affects men and women equally, men typically experience symptoms earlier, with more intensity, and have poorer prognosis than women. Symptoms of schizophrenia in women more frequently involve depression and greater disorders in thought conceptualization, while men report more apathy, disorders of speech, disturbance in cognitive function, and social isolation.
3. Alzheimer’s disease - Several studies have shown that women are at a higher risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease than men are. This disease is caused by the damage to the white brain matter. On the other hand, men with Alzheimer’s disease have a higher risk of mortality than women do.
4. Stress Disorders - Anziaty disorders are chronic illnesses that occur more often in women than men. The risk of post-traumatic stress disorder following some traumatic experience is much higher in women than men. Women are also more likely to have been previously assaulted or to have sustained injury by a relative or someone known to them.

Happiness: In general, it has been proven that women are happier with their lives than men are. Women also show greater concern about family and home life issues, while men express more sympathies about political issues.

Different brains – different abilities: The difference between the male and female brain is not evidence of intelligence, unintelligence, superiority, or inferiority, but of field specializations. In general, males have better spatial and math skills than females. On the other hand, girls tend to be more vocal than boys. Males are much better in visualizing a three-dimensional object than women are.

SOME OTHER DIFFERENCES - life success, education, employment…

Employment: In most of countries, there are more wealthy or rich men than there are women. There are much more unemployed females, as well. Employed women earn 80% of the income of men. Women are less productive then men – women in nonagricultural industries work 35.9 hours per week versus 41.6 hours for men.