"What if"

[Oceanic]

Originally Posted by lastlight

Plus I heard DOW puts antiReef crystals into its new mix.

LOL, actually... Dow did change their process that leaves fairly higher levels of bromide in their calcium flake. This has now proven to be a non issue in tanks with regular water changes...

[iansfishy]

I think what Aquadigital was saying was that the FM products are made exclusively for the reef, whereas DOW and arm and hammer are not. I believe that thread had been started because I had PM'ed Aqua Digital stating that I had run out of the FM sodium carbonate, and had been using Arm and Hammer as a substitute until I could get some more Of the FM product. And if he had known of anyone reporting ill effects using the balling method and Arm and hammer as a substitute. The problem being that im not in any hurry to purchase the FM product because it is $20.00 per kg as oppossed to $1.85 for arm and hammer. I have not noticed any ill effects using the Arm and hammer, but I agree slightly with aquadigital in given the choice I would rather use reef specific products but at what price? Not at 10x the price!
In the defence of Fauna marin however i have never had any "brown water" as the Dow will produce, BUT I am always looking for a cheaper substitute. I just cant get over the price of the product, and I agree with others saying that making the product affordable would defianetly help, but I dont make the product, and dont know the cost to produce the prodcut so who am I to say. I believe that the FM salts are pure with additional trace elements added by FM which could be the reason for the cost. Aquadigital has always been very helpful for me and I can see his points. He is simply saying that if your not using the products designed for "balling" your not really doing the balling method. He was making statements about a product he stands behind. As for people who are simply making their own salts with Dow and other cheaper products, and not doing the balling method I dont think he cares. Just my two cents. But what about the products from Littlesilvermax, will they substitute for the FM product?

[lastlight]

Originally Posted by Oceanic

LOL, actually... Dow did change their process that leaves fairly higher levels of bromide in their calcium flake. This has now proven to be a non issue in tanks with regular water changes...

Lol yeah I know. I like most others who use or plan to use BRS or LSM...we've read the chemistry forums on RC. We've seen expert testimony and proof through their use. DIY supplements can and do work.

A brown bucket doesn't mean much to me. My Reef Crystals always used to leave the same thing in my bucket.

Plus check out the blue carpet. I call 20k bulb cover-up or photoshop conspiracy! Colors can't be trusted!

[Tom R]

I have been dosing DIY salts for a number of years and yes like anyone in this hobby I would not put anything into my system if I thought it would harm it.

My system is 525G, many of my friends have systems that are between 250G and 500G. The product sold in our LFS has been packaged to sell at $10 to $20. This is fine for those who have systems of 75G or less.
The bulk of the cost in a $20 350g bottle of balling salts sold at a LFS is the cost of packaging and the 2 or 3 markups included to get the product to market. The cost of the balling salt itself is the least expensive part of the price.
If the manufactures made a bulk product available to the larger system owners maybe more of us would buy their products.

Tom R

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Tom R

If the manufactures made a bulk product available to the larger system owners maybe more of us would buy their products.

Tom R

Bingo! Sell it in a plain ole white bucket with a black and white sticker on top that simply says which product it is. Those of us who buy big buckets know what we're buying we don't need all the fancy schmancy sales pitches and pretty photos on the product.

[Oceanic]

Originally Posted by iansfishy

I think what Aquadigital was saying was that the FM products are made exclusively for the reef, whereas DOW and arm and hammer are not. I believe that thread had been started because I had PM'ed Aqua Digital stating that I had run out of the FM sodium carbonate, and had been using Arm and Hammer as a substitute until I could get some more Of the FM product. And if he had known of anyone reporting ill effects using the balling method and Arm and hammer as a substitute. The problem being that im not in any hurry to purchase the FM product because it is $20.00 per kg as oppossed to $1.85 for arm and hammer. I have not noticed any ill effects using the Arm and hammer, but I agree slightly with aquadigital in given the choice I would rather use reef specific products but at what price? Not at 10x the price!
In the defence of Fauna marin however i have never had any "brown water" as the Dow will produce, BUT I am always looking for a cheaper substitute. I just cant get over the price of the product, and I agree with others saying that making the product affordable would defianetly help, but I dont make the product, and dont know the cost to produce the prodcut so who am I to say. I believe that the FM salts are pure with additional trace elements added by FM which could be the reason for the cost. Aquadigital has always been very helpful for me and I can see his points. He is simply saying that if your not using the products designed for "balling" your not really doing the balling method. He was making statements about a product he stands behind. As for people who are simply making their own salts with Dow and other cheaper products, and not doing the balling method I dont think he cares. Just my two cents. But what about the products from Littlesilvermax, will they substitute for the FM product?

I am not saying that he posted that with the intention of only pushing his product or business. I just have an issue with bad articles or advice.

[shrimpchips]

Originally Posted by lastlight

Lol yeah I know. I like most others who use or plan to use BRS or LSM...we've read the chemistry forums on RC. We've seen expert testimony and proof through their use. DIY supplements can and do work.

DIY does work, but for some it also means finding the product, buying a massive bag of ice melter (which I have no space to store), and dissolving the lot of it into a 5g bucket (which I have no place to store 3 of them). A few hundred grams of purer chemical in 4L of water works great for me, who is spatially challenged.

Originally Posted by lastlight

A brown bucket doesn't mean much to me. My Reef Crystals always used to leave the same thing in my bucket.

Plus check out the blue carpet. I call 20k bulb cover-up or photoshop conspiracy! Colors can't be trusted!

I think that's a funny comparison too, considering that the sides of the bucket are also clearly browned, unless dissolving the salts stains all the way up the bucket too, instead of just leaving a dirty residue at the bottom of the bucket.

Originally Posted by Myka

Bingo! Sell it in a plain ole white bucket with a black and white sticker on top that simply says which product it is. Those of us who buy big buckets know what we're buying we don't need all the fancy schmancy sales pitches and pretty photos on the product.

My FM balling salts come in a plain white 4kg pail with a colourful sticker on the side. Damn colour stickers making it so expensive.

[lastlight]

Hey I'd likely use purer / reef-specific products too If I could afford to (meaning if they weren't so expensive). My beef was just the original post making all DIY additives out to be the devil. Some maybe aren't great for everyday use but it's been shown long-term to be a viable solution using some.

I hear you on space. I have my big box of chems under my computer desk here lol.

[shrimpchips]

Yeah, I agree that the OP (well on the other thread) was a bit (or more) "doom and gloom" about using DIY - it's a viable alternative, with inherent risks/problems just like everything else.

brand name/DIY aside, I just hate it when I'm in the elevator with buckets or bags of white powders and someone else steps in. Man, that becomes a long awkward ride to the 17th floor...

[littlesilvermax]

I often think about this stuff myself. I never get any residue in my mixing containers, and even if one did, could it just be a bit of dust? You know the dust that falls into your tank all day long?

I have only sold stuff I have used. In fact I have spend the better part of 5 months getting rid of corals that are all the size of basketballs (some bigger) getting ready for a move. So obviously you don't need expensive stuff to get good results.

I always get food grade stuff, so I think it is a grade above anything that will be used for driveway salt. I can't say that it is as good as the high dollar stuff sold by companies. If I could get 2 lbs of BrandXX calcium for $8, I would buy it in a flash, but I can't.

I do know that I have used brand name kalk in the past, and my non-brand name stuff had less residual. So just because there are expensive "reef" products out there, doesn't mean they are any better, but could actually be worse.

But in all reality, I do believe that some of the reputable manufacturers actually make good products, with good R&D in it, and that there trace elements may in fact help a bit.

How much difference do they make? Are the trace elements needed? Would more water changes (cheaper then using their balling method) offset the need for these trace elements? I don't know.

I would actually like to have 2 identical tanks running for a minimum of 2 years, and see which method works best

I wish I could add more, but I really don't know of any credible info to share.