Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[macky]

Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

[sphelps]

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

[wickedfrags]

By the quality of your posts and supporting arguments you may very well have left readers assuming you got all C's in high school, then straight off to college to become a nurse...this of course may not be the case. Perhaps re-read the quote below...

Originally Posted by macky

I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid.

Well put - read a lot, think for yourself.

Originally Posted by sphelps

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by macky

Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:



Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

Originally Posted by sphelps

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Ron99

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by sphelps

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

No Worries. I don't think I ever said anything was my final point, just that I was getting frustrated and questioning the value of posting here. And I do think that on this subject my many years of work in both medical microbiology and pharmaceutical R&D makes my opinions somewhat more credible then some of the contributors here. You wouldn't ask your accountant for medical advice or your doctor for tax advice would you? I do have knowledge and experience that is directly relevant to the discussion. I'm also trying to post scientifically accurate information so people can make an informed choice rather then relying on fear and the huge volume of misinformation making the rounds.

What might be more useful is for people to post legitimate questions here such as "should I be concerned about the mercury in this vaccine?" which could then be constructively answered as I did above. But just getting on here and posting things like "the vaccine has mercury in it so I'm not taking it and you shouldn't either" is not only unhelpful it is actually harmful and foments more fear and uncertainty without actually informing people or addressing legitimate concerns.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Ron99

I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.

Mistrust was never mentioned by me, so you must be assuming I mistrust them which I'm certainly not saying is the case. I'm just saying you can't necessarily trust such companies more than you would other companies. A human life is a human life and many companies make products which in some way can affect that.
Those are good questions and I assure you I've considered all of them and I'm not in the least bit concerned because I've done and am doing what I believe is necessary to keep myself healthy and safe. I was never concerned about the H1N1 and I was even in Mexico at the height of the scare last spring. In addition I've never once had the flu, my methods and reasoning however are based on my own findings and beliefs and I don't see how stating them benefits anyone else. You got to do somethings by yourself, I would never offer medical advice since I'm not a doctor and doing so would be unethical from my point of view.

[Snaz]

I wonder what the results of the same poll would be today?

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Snaz

I wonder what the results of the same poll would be today?

Personally I would take this poll with a grain of salt as it is hardly a scientifically or statistically well set up poll. I would guess a number of the people who voted for a conspiracy did so tongue in cheek.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Mistrust was never mentioned by me, so you must be assuming I mistrust them which I'm certainly not saying is the case. I'm just saying you can't necessarily trust such companies more than you would other companies. A human life is a human life and many companies make products which in some way can affect that.
Those are good questions and I assure you I've considered all of them and I'm not in the least bit concerned because I've done and am doing what I believe is necessary to keep myself healthy and safe. I was never concerned about the H1N1 and I was even in Mexico at the height of the scare last spring. In addition I've never once had the flu, my methods and reasoning however are based on my own findings and beliefs and I don't see how stating them benefits anyone else. You got to do somethings by yourself, I would never offer medical advice since I'm not a doctor and doing so would be unethical from my point of view.

Fair enough. I think it is important to remember that the pharma industry is one of the most heavily regulated ones around. Far more then car companies. If there were a problem with a drug or vaccine that came to light then it would and should be re-examined and could likely be pulled from the market. This has happened several times in the past. there is much closer scrutiny of drugs than any other product I can think of.