Feeding Live

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by argan

wild clowns are more nutritious?

I think the point here is.....with the state of the oceans reefs coming under close examination and evaluation, can we afford to take a fish from the ocean to feed it to what 99% of reefers consider an un-wanted pest? A lot of time and effort goes into getting marine fish to our pet stores, whether they are wild caught or tank raised. It seems irresponsible to me to feed these fish to a hitch-hiker.....perhaps a better choice for food would be mollies....something that breeds like bunny rabbits and is readily available?

Since when is it natural to put a fish in a glass box with a predator?
Do you people condoning this also condone rooster fighting? Mongoose fighting?

[Zoaelite]

Originally Posted by fishytime

I think the point here is.....with the state of the oceans reefs coming under close examination and evaluation, can we afford to take a fish from the ocean to feed it to what 99% of reefers consider an un-wanted pest? A lot of time and effort goes into getting marine fish to our pet stores, whether they are wild caught or tank raised. It seems irresponsible to me to feed these fish to a hitch-hiker.....perhaps a better choice for food would be mollies....something that breeds like bunny rabbits and is readily available?

Since when is it natural to put a fish in a glass box with a predator?
Do you people condoning this also condone rooster fighting? Mongoose fighting?

How are you making this connection fishy? Rooster/ Dog/ Mongoose fighting are done in a very illegal setting focused on betting and the transfer of money. Me feeding my Trigger fish a live damsel is like Rooster fighting in which sense?

Since when is it natural to put a fish in a glass box with a predator?

Well, Since when is it natural to put a fish in a glass box with out a predator? It isn't natural to put a fish in a box period, yet we still have this massive fresh/ salt water aquarium hobby going on around the world.

[naesco]

The original poster's intent was a poll about the ethics of feeding a predator live marine fish.
The feeding of a live starfish to a harlequin shrimp and a clownfish to a mantis were set at as examples.

I love watching a starfish fold itself around live rock as it searches for food. I love watching it's tiny suckers move the starfish up the glass in my aquarium.
I don't understand a hobbyist getting their rocks off watching a harlequin shrimp tearing it apart live.

I love watching a clownfish doing their waddle like swim, watching you with their cute bright eyes. I love watching it snuggle itself in it's anemone.
I idea of watching this cute little fish attacked by a mantis makes me wonder why someone would see joy in this for any reason.

My vote is that this is unethical.

[justinl]

I only gave this thread the barest of a skim, but let me comment on the mantis thing. I don't believe any account of a mantis that will accept "only" live feed of any kind. get the thing hungry enough and it will eat just about anything you offer it; live fish isn't a necessity, it's just what it has gotten used to. It's just a matter of breaking its habit. That said, for many mantis shrimp, live feed is an essential part of its diet; smashers to be specific. Without regular feedings of hard shelled foods, the mantis won't exercise its raptorial appendages and will eventually tear them off. You can use shells stuffed with frozen food, but only if the bug doesn't learn to just pull the food out of the shell without breaking the shell. Spearers don't really require live feed. For the record, I think predation is a fascinating and natural process that goes a lot deeper than something eating another thing. I don't have the patience for bleeding hearts that think "nature" should be a disney film.

edit: yes I have ocean dwellers cooped up in a glass prison. freshwater ones too. I'm a self-confessed hypocrite; we all are one way or the other.

[Treebeard]

Well said!

Originally Posted by justinl

I only gave this thread the barest of a skim, but let me comment on the mantis thing. I don't believe any account of a mantis that will accept "only" live feed of any kind. get the thing hungry enough and it will eat just about anything you offer it; live fish isn't a necessity, it's just what it has gotten used to. It's just a matter of breaking its habit. That said, for many mantis shrimp, live feed is an essential part of its diet; smashers to be specific. Without regular feedings of hard shelled foods, the mantis won't exercise its raptorial appendages and will eventually tear them off. You can use shells stuffed with frozen food, but only if the bug doesn't learn to just pull the food out of the shell without breaking the shell. Spearers don't really require live feed. For the record, I think predation is a fascinating and natural process that goes a lot deeper than something eating another thing. I don't have the patience for bleeding hearts that think "nature" should be a disney film.

[Treebeard]

Let me guess, you are city born and raised, and think that food comes from Safeway? Have you ever been on a farm?

Originally Posted by naesco

The original poster's intent was a poll about the ethics of feeding a predator live marine fish.
The feeding of a live starfish to a harlequin shrimp and a clownfish to a mantis were set at as examples.

I love watching a starfish fold itself around live rock as it searches for food. I love watching it's tiny suckers move the starfish up the glass in my aquarium.
I don't understand a hobbyist getting their rocks off watching a harlequin shrimp tearing it apart live.

I love watching a clownfish doing their waddle like swim, watching you with their cute bright eyes. I love watching it snuggle itself in it's anemone.
I idea of watching this cute little fish attacked by a mantis makes me wonder why someone would see joy in this for any reason.

My vote is that this is unethical.

[BlueAbyss]

*Sigh* Well, first off, let me say that I don't like clownfish... I would prefer to see Nemo on the short end of a long spear. A mantis spear is perfect...

Now that I have that out of the way, let's look at the meat and potatoes of this. Either way, Nemo was removed from the ocean and will NOT be going back in. Simply put. He will either live a long, healthy life, or a short unhealthy one in a poorly taken care of tank, or will get eaten by something (or go carpet surfing, or get sucked into an intake...). I don't see any problem with this, at least he isn't a food fish that we harvest thousands of his kind in a giant net at once. If Nemo was tasty, we'd be eating him too... I can't see why feeding him to someone else should be a problem.

Ethical or unethical... who cares? The fact that he's been removed from the ocean pretty much seals his fate anyhow, right? I don't think it matters whether he lives 5 years in a 1000 gallon tank, 1 year in a 10 gallon tank, or 2 minutes in a mantis tank... the fact is he will die in that tank, one way or another. Or on the carpet next to the tank, if it's open top

[RCFA]

Originally Posted by naesco

The original poster's intent was a poll about the ethics of feeding a predator live marine fish.
The feeding of a live starfish to a harlequin shrimp and a clownfish to a mantis were set at as examples.

I love watching a starfish fold itself around live rock as it searches for food. I love watching it's tiny suckers move the starfish up the glass in my aquarium.
I don't understand a hobbyist getting their rocks off watching a harlequin shrimp tearing it apart live.

I love watching a clownfish doing their waddle like swim, watching you with their cute bright eyes. I love watching it snuggle itself in it's anemone.
I idea of watching this cute little fish attacked by a mantis makes me wonder why someone would see joy in this for any reason.

My vote is that this is unethical.

Really not trying to personalize this issue, but where is the line drawn for people with similar opinions? That starfish was probbably curling around a crustsacean or mollusk that is still alive as it is slowly digested.

Anyways this discussion will always have opposing views but saying that individuals who feed live food do so for the purpose of "getting their rocks off" does not apply here. I don't even beleive you can classify this as an ethical debate. It's like trying to say you think hunting is unethical but you have no problem eating farmed cattle that is butchered for you. It's personal choice and a comfort issue. Both options are available and no one is forcing anyone to choose one or the other.

I do however agree with fishytime about trying to avoid using wildcaught reef fish as a consistent food source for your predators. When living in Houston, I bought live silversides and other baitfish to feed to my lions and would do so again if I had a cheap source for them here. I beleive these fish are much more prolific and may be considered renewable to some extent (please correct me if I am mistaken here).

[fishytime]

Originally Posted by zoaElite

How are you making this connection fishy? Rooster/ Dog/ Mongoose fighting are done in a very illegal setting focused on betting and the transfer of money. Me feeding my Trigger fish a live damsel is like Rooster fighting in which sense?

Well, Since when is it natural to put a fish in a glass box with out a predator? It isn't natural to put a fish in a box period, yet we still have this massive fresh/ salt water aquarium hobby going on around the world.

My mind works in strange ways sometimes....OK peeps were saying that that in the ocean its eat or be eaten the predator/prey thing is a beautiful thing....I agree with this.....I love watching National Geographic and seeing a cheetah, chase down and kill a gazelle on the open Serengetti(sp?)....that to me is awesome.....but put that gazelle in a corral and.....while these relationships exist in the wild (like mongoose/ cobra fights and **** fights) .....the playing field is even, so to speak....both predator and prey have every opportunity to both succeed and fail.....this is not so when people put two roosters in a ring to fight it out....or a mongoose in a glass box with a cobra....or a clownfish in an aquarium with a mantis....


I agree with you most of us are hypocrites....