% salt water stock coming from farms?

[Palmer]

Thanks for the info. I am looking to get a salt water tank but I guess I am interested in whether what I am going to be investing in is endangering species or the natural reef in general. Is there a basis for this concern or are most species purchased at the LFS so plentiful that it isn't an issue?

Palmer

[no_bs]

Well, i think a little more reasearch is needed in your quest for answers.
Firstly, you must look at the inhumane methods that the wild caught fish and corals are subjected too. As well, survial is low, hence they take more stock. Some reefs have died. Take a look on you tube as well we have come across many, many sites that will inform you. We sure didn't know all of this before our reef tank. So to help save a reef, buy from other reefers. Less expensive than lfs. Could go on and on.........

[Nebthet]

I think this is a great topic because it goes to show how much we are still taking from the environment when we don't have to.
Taking a look at a lot of websites, what I find suprising is that mostly Canadian LFS' have to buy their livestock, which a few exceptions, from the Phillipines, and yet, to the south of us, in the United States, we have places like C-quest, ORA, Liveaquaria, Premium Aquatics, who regularily sell tank bred and farmed corals, but because of CITES and the cost they impost on the American companies to be allowed to export them into Canada we can't get our hands on those corals, unless we know someone in the States, near the border where we can hop over get them and smuggle them into Canada.

CITIES is defeating it's own purpose of existance by making Canadians continue to rape the environment more than our southern neighbours, to be able to get the same corals. It is horrific and frankly they need to let up on some of their fees so that we can do our part in keeping the natural environment where it is and taking only from those who sell tank bred fish and aquacultured corals as much as possible.

[Nebthet]

Actually to add on to the previous, what I am finding interesting, after going through and reading all of the CITES appendices, On page 32 of the Appendices lists where it states the regulations on corals, it states only SCLERACTINIA spp. under Appendices II for stony corals.

Scleractinia Spp. Are Maricultured corals. Meaning all stony corals taken directly from the Sea.

The only other one on the list of corals to mention are Pipe-Organs.

Therefore, from this information there really needs to be some more research put in from CITES to updating the standards of their lists.
While some corals we get and eventually aquaculture/farm on a business basis or within are own tanks originally may have come from the Ocean somewhere down the line, how many generations ago was that? and why is it being counted against the import/export regulations?

Take a look at ORA corals, which we all want really badly. At least 90% of those corals have been aquacultured and stains crossbred to bring out certain colors and to become more hardy in the home reef system. Obviously these are not maricultured corals and frankly should not be held accountable under CITES. As a business, ORA should have the ability to easily and readily show their corals are Aquacultured/Farmed and therefore should be able to get the permits needed easily because of that.

The only thing I can think of to do in a situation like this, to allow us as Canadians to get access to more tank bred fish and more aquacultured corals is to ask CITES to look into creating allowances for aquacultured/farmed corals.

I am going to look into anyways.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by Nebthet

Actually to add on to the previous, what I am finding interesting, after going through and reading all of the CITES appendices, On page 32 of the Appendices lists where it states the regulations on corals, it states only SCLERACTINIA spp. under Appendices II for stony corals.

Scleractinia Spp. Are Maricultured corals. Meaning all stony corals taken directly from the Sea.

This is a flawed interpretation. When you get a CITES permit individual stony coral species are identified in the documentation. Scleractinia Spp is used as a catch all for things like live rock, any thing that was at some point live coral. Things like soft corals and mushrooms do not need a CITES permit to import provided they are not attached to any rock at all. If they are attached to rock, maricultured or not then a permit specifying so many pieces of Scleractinia Spp is required.

Originally Posted by Nebthet

The only thing I can think of to do in a situation like this, to allow us as Canadians to get access to more tank bred fish and more aquacultured corals is to ask CITES to look into creating allowances for aquacultured/farmed corals.

I am going to look into anyways.

The requirement for importing cultured stony corals from the US is very simple but a complete PITA for the exporter to handle. Every time they export a frag they need to resubmit the original import permit for the colony. Obviously this is not always possible but it's there for a reason, it keeps people from doing a chop shop re-export thing.

Changing this will require amending an international treaty, it won't be simple. It probably won't accomplish anything either. Any framework that has good enough documentation requirements to stop the chop shop style abuse is going to put enough of a burden on US exporters that they won't want to do it. ORA and Tyree and waiting lists now, why would they want to go through the hassle?

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Palmer

Thanks for the info. I am looking to get a salt water tank but I guess I am interested in whether what I am going to be investing in is endangering species or the natural reef in general. Is there a basis for this concern or are most species purchased at the LFS so plentiful that it isn't an issue?

Palmer

Be careful about the species you choose to add to your tank. You can setup an entire tank using captive bred fish, inverts, corals, and even cultured rock. Or, you can purchase fish that are caught with cyanide, are close to endangerment, ship poorly, or have very poor short or long-term survival rates.

Do a Google search for ORA - Oceans, reefs, and aquariums. That is a good place to start to see the largest marine captive breeding aquariums.

[o.c.d.]

Something many don't think about is reef are being bombed for the fish to eat and the fish and the reef are losing the battle. But If the fisherman bomber is taught how to properly farm coral in a sustainable way the fish come back the reef grow, tourist come to see the reef. The fisherman and the country makes money for long term. This is a little on the dreamy side but I have read articles about it happening. I hope this becomes the way thinks are. Our Tanks are a window into what many people don't care about until they see it up close. Education is the key.Everyone wants the polar bear to survive, its fussy cute and warms are heart when we see it. The beauty of the reef can have the same effect but we all have to make the effort to educate people we come into contact with.Prime example neighbors child see my tank I get the why? where? how come?.. I explain and the child now tells me every encounter she has with aquatic life. She tells her friends and they all want to come and see. Who's to say what effect that will have in the future, positive though.

[Drock169]

Lets not get into the whole ORA coral thing, its been officially confirmed that they wont ship to canada, and their supplier doesnt seem to have anything nice to offer even though they can ship to canada.
As far as ORA fish goes, they dont offer much to Canada, clowns and dottybacks are all they offer on a regular basis, every now and then gobies/blennies are available.
Pretty much if you want Aquacultured Coral, go to places like Coral master or other frag companies that have been around for awhile.
Essentially someone in Canada needs to set up an Aquaculture Facility, but I have a feeling the cost of running something like that in Canada wouldnt be cheap which means higher prices, and from what I know, there is a large majority of people in the hobby who don't want to spend premium prices.

[BlueAbyss]

Originally Posted by Drock169

...the cost of running something like that in Canada wouldnt be cheap which means higher prices, and from what I know, there is a large majority of people in the hobby who don't want to spend premium prices.

Absolutely. If it were feasible, I think someone would already have gone this route.

EDIT: I would also like to say that if you choose your livestock carefully, you can minimize the impact on natural reefs. Choose more common fishes, coral frags (rather than colonies), and make your own rock.

[Palmer]

Thanks again for the info. It's at least good that there is information about which species are more at risk and likely to survive. When I set my tank up I will try and use as much aquacultured stock as I can.

Palmer