To all Skimmer and Bubble King owners

[midgetwaiter]

Skimmin and I have been talking about this subject pretty steadily for a week or so. He is unable to convince me that a Bubble King is a reasonable purchase and I am unable to convince him that it isn't. Here's my side of the argument:

The thing that I am stuck on is that I don't think these units are going to skim a whole lot better than something at a fraction of the price. There was an article published a while ago that supports this.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2

The comparisons they did with 4 different skimmers based on different air injection styles showed that they all did about the same job with a protein analog in roughly the same amount of time. Unfortunately they didn't have one of the newer high end skimmer designs included in the testing so it doesn't seem to be a good supporting argument for this discussion. However if you take a good look at the article (and it's a beast I know) two things jump out at me that I think are very relevant.

In the controlled testing 3 of these older designs were able to achieve recovery rates greater than 90% when tuned properly. In fact it was the airstone model that managed the most consistently high recovery, which I am not surprised by at all.

Additionally when tested with real world tank water they all had similar results. The really interesting thing here is what the ceiling of those results are. The thing we want our skimmer to do for us is remove dissolved organics which we can measure as Total Organic Carbon. None of these skimmer was able to remove greater than 30% of the TOC measured. Because of the way a skimmer works a dissolved compound needs to have a structure that sticks to the bubbles or it won't be removed. Apparently 70%-80% of the dissolved organic compounds in your reef tank don't have the right structure and as such no skimmer can remove them.

So if I am able to get 100% recovery of available organics out of say a $500 ETSS Downdraft and realistically that is only 30% of the TOC in my tank anyway what am I paying 3x the price for exactly?

I can see three reasons to go spend a wack of dough on a fancy bit of aquarium gear.

1) It's going to work perform better than what I have. That doesn't seem to be possible in this case but I'd like to hear other people's points of view.

2) It's going to be easier to setup / maintain / tune. This is potentially important, it doesn't matter what a unit is capable of if it isn't setup right. However in the hands of an experienced reef keeper I don't think most skimmers are that big of a hassle and Skimmin is a pretty good DIY skimmer guy.

3) It's shiny. The BKs have a lot of shiny appeal to them.

So it seems to be that the only category BK (and other high price tag designs) wins in is the shiny factor. That's fine if that's the reason he wants to get it but he seems to think it's going to work better and I don't agree.

[RuGlu6]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Skimming and I have been talking about this subject pretty steadily for a week or so. He is unable to convince me that a Bubble King is a reasonable purchase and I am unable to convince him that it isn't. Here's my side of the argument:

The thing that I am stuck on is that I don't think these units are going to skim a whole lot better than something at a fraction of the price. There was an article published a while ago that supports this.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2

The comparisons they did with 4 different skimmers based on different air injection styles showed that they all did about the same job with a protein analog in roughly the same amount of time. Unfortunately they didn't have one of the newer high end skimmer designs included in the testing so it doesn't seem to be a good supporting argument for this discussion. However if you take a good look at the article (and it's a beast I know) two things jump out at me that I think are very relevant.

In the controlled testing 3 of these older designs were able to achieve recovery rates greater than 90% when tuned properly. In fact it was the air-stone model that managed the most consistently high recovery, which I am not surprised by at all.

Additionally when tested with real world tank water they all had similar results. The really interesting thing here is what the ceiling of those results are. The thing we want our skimmer to do for us is remove dissolved organics which we can measure as Total Organic Carbon. None of these skimmer was able to remove greater than 30% of the TOC measured. Because of the way a skimmer works a dissolved compound needs to have a structure that sticks to the bubbles or it won't be removed. Apparently 70%-80% of the dissolved organic compounds in your reef tank don't have the right structure and as such no skimmer can remove them.

So if I am able to get 100% recovery of available organics out of say a $500 ETSS Downdraft and realistically that is only 30% of the TOC in my tank anyway what am I paying 3x the price for exactly?

I can see three reasons to go spend a whack of dough on a fancy bit of aquarium gear.

1) It's going to work perform better than what I have. That doesn't seem to be possible in this case but I'd like to hear other people's points of view.

2) It's going to be easier to setup / maintain / tune. This is potentially important, it doesn't matter what a unit is capable of if it isn't setup right. However in the hands of an experienced reef keeper I don't think most skimmers are that big of a hassle and Skimming is a pretty good DIY skimmer guy.

3) It's shiny. The BKs have a lot of shiny appeal to them.

So it seems to be that the only category BK (and other high price tag designs) wins in is the shiny factor. That's fine if that's the reason he wants to get it but he seems to think it's going to work better and I don't agree.

This is a very reasonable statement and i would agree wholeheartedly.

What people seem to forget is what skimmer actually is, the skimmer is an air mixing device.
So what will make a good one? More air mixing capabilities !

That makes an AIR driven skimmer a fair choice especially if you have silent and powerful air pump.


When i make my choice i look at :
1: How much air can this skimmer mix? anything less the 600 l/hr i would not consider.
2: What pump does it come with? It must be reliable, very quiet (silent is better) and be cost effective in terms of watts.
3.It must be easy to clean.
4. $ Cost.
And thats it! Personally i don't care what material its made from machined or not, lasers? who cares! It's acrylic, If you don't use ozone it will last long time regardless of how its made.

I had many skimmers since 1998 and above is my honest opinion.

Oh, yes and as mentioned by "midgetwaiter" one more thing that people seem to overlook is that what we really need to skim is DOC dissolved organic carbon and key word is dissolved.
So when skimmer cup is full of nasty smelling staff, how much of it is actual Dissolved Organic Carbon?
Maybe 30%, and perhaps 70% is just neutral small particulate and debris that already have leached all the organic carbons back in to the tank water, so what are we really skimming is a really good question.
jmtcw

[albert_dao]

Sometimes people like owning nice stuff. I paid $1200 for my chef knice. Why? Cause it looks like this:



And it cuts like a razor every time I touch the damn thing to any food.

But that's just what I think.

[banditpowdercoat]

Kicks the crap outa my $35 JA Henkel's LOL

[Bayside Corals]

I have personally used and sold many brands of skimmers. BK is worth every penny!

[Madreefer]

I used to own a BK Mini 180. Awesome skimmer. I sold it to upgrade to a Royal Exclusive Vertex Alpha cone 250. The only complaint that you will probably ever hear from a BK owner is that it comes with no instructions. The quality and materials used to make these can't be matched. Pretty much a plug and play with no tinkering. The crap these things pull out is unbeleivable, they are quiet and yes they stay white. With the cone, it is so simple to take every part of it off and clean. The reveiws you hear from a BK owner are very high. So feel free to listen to all the bashing from those people that have'nt owned one. If you can afford one I highly recommend them.

[Skimmerking]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

I used to own a BK Mini 180. Awesome skimmer. I sold it to upgrade to a Royal Exclusive Vertex Alpha cone 250. The only complaint that you will probably ever hear from a BK owner is that it comes with no instructions. The quality and materials used to make these can't be matched. Pretty much a plug and play with no tinkering. The crap these things pull out is unbeleivable, they are quiet and yes they stay white. With the cone, it is so simple to take every part of it off and clean. The reveiws you hear from a BK owner are very high. So feel free to listen to all the bashing from those people that have'nt owned one. If you can afford one I highly recommend them.

I have owned pretty much every high end skimmer going and the other odds and sods, now when you look at what the skimmer actually does yes it makes bubbles but the pump makes the bubbles, not the type of acrylic or how think it is. However the bubble plate does enhance the way the bubbles flow to a point. Now the pump is going to help pretty much in 98% of the quality of bubbles. 1% is the way the skimmers being built, and the other way is amount of air going in to mix with the water.

When you are buying a high end skimmer like a BK , DELTEC, H&S. of course it’s going to be made to a certain way and the craftsmanship is outstanding.

it has to be doesn't of course it does. Or you are not going to pay that silly amount of money to buy it. I use to own a ATI BM250 love the skimmer wide body and a wide neck for a nice smooth transforming of bubbles instead of the 8 " chamber to a 4 " chamber. It’s a nice smooth effect you hardly get a dirty neck. It was the last skimmer that I would ever buy. However the SIcci 2500 pump are crap IMO and if that stuck a Askoll pump on there. Then the skimmer would be a rocket. I used to own a BK mini 200 I said that was it that amount of money on it and wow, t he reaction times isn’t that great thou for a big tank. IMO and IME. So I sold it.
The vertex skimmer is a beast thou
I like the look of it and the way it’s built maybe that is the type of skimmer that it’s going to stay on the market with the high end skimmer I know that Skimmin has one of these and loves it. I have a Deltec and it’s a amazing skimmer I truly love it. However people are asking me Mike if you love it so much why the BK SM 250. I bought it to help out a friend and Plus I'm curious too. I didn’t need the skimmer; The Deltec did my tank fine. SO I will take it off line and try the SM 250 to compare. If I don’t like it it will get sold the 250 that is. Some people love the EXT models for the sake that they want it. Some people need the internal models because they don’t want the room and they can’t afford it.

SO it’s going to depend on
$$$$$
EXTERNAL
INTERNAL
SIZE
HEIGHT
and IF you are crazy enough to go and try all the ways here. mmmm ASMODEUS u are retarded lol I KNOW.

At the end of the day its going to be your opinion.