Info about ORA Corals in Canada

Zoaelite · #1 05-16-2009, 05:12 PM

Well thanks for the info, If I ever really need coral from the US then I know how Il get it done

. I have a feeling I'm going to get the gaurd who is having a bad day and just recieved a shipment of new latex gloves though

. Dave, your thoughts on the matter?

Ron99 · #2 05-16-2009, 05:39 PM

No guys, all that means is as stated; "ORA does not ship to Canada". They do not ship directly to Canada. That is all you can conclude. To me that doesn't mean it can't be done legally and properly through a third party who purchases them from ORA.

Dave, what is really the intent of all these threads you are starting? I was hoping for a productive conversation on the movement of corals around the world and how import and export works etc.

Instead, it seems like you are just wanting to make statements about how it is not possible to bring these corals in Canada and are therefore implying that another vendor is doing something dishonest.

I think this is not cool and these threads should be removed.

KPG007 · #3 05-16-2009, 10:46 PM

Though I haven't tried it, I have heard from many people, including an LFS in Portland (Upscales, I think. The home of the original 'Oregon Tort'), that its easy to take frags accross the border. Simply tell the border gaurd that you have live ornamental coral for your home aquarium, and 9 out of 10 times they'll let you through no problem. The 1 out of 10 times is a guard who has no idea what you're talking about, and tells you to go inside and tell them. The guys inside can be sticklers and what to make sure the coral is on the CITIES approved list (no, they don't want to see a CITIES certificate). It can be a hassle, and on a rare occasion they might be rejected, but for the dedicated, it's easy enough to do.

Anyone want some Tyree, ORA or anything else corals?

Zoaelite · #4 05-16-2009, 11:06 PM

If you will go get it for me,

Boarder gaurds scare me...
Levi

Scythanith · #5 05-17-2009, 01:44 AM

You cannot technically bring stony corals across the Canada/US border without a proper CITES. But as has been stated, it's fairly easy to do if you have an easy going border guard.

Anyone and their dog can get corals from the states into Canada. I'd actually be extremely surprised if people had issues doing so. I have also spoke directly with ORA and had received the same response as Dave.

You can bring soft corals across the border as long as they aren't affixed to live rock. So ordering zoanthids from the states is A-Ok. All hard corals fall under Appenix II in the CITES categories. This means they require CITES permits for import/export every single time they cross borders. Ron99, I believe ORA's main aquaculture facility is in Florida, so when corals ares shipped to their retailers in the USA, they don't include CITES information. This CITES information would be required for the retailer to apply for the re-export permit and then pass the ORA corals onto a Canadian retailer. You are hoping for productive discussion on import/export, and I think this is productive.

If this discussion keeps someone for unknowingly crossing borders with corals and getting charged under WAPPRIITA in Canada or the Lacey Act in the USA, then someone has been educated and this conversation has been successful. Just think about these people...

$615 Person fine for bringing stoney corals into Canada
http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang...A-C6AD90C09899

over $1300 Store fined for bringing corals and clams into Canada
http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang...4-0EA275A259EA

I think Dave is trying to show people that they have to be aware of the consequences of buying corals. There are some major consequences if governing bodies decided to make an example of someone. Here is an expert of what could happen:

WAPPRIITA, brought into force by the Government of Canada in 1996, provides federal wildlife officers with an enforcement tool to pursue corporations or individuals who illegally import endangered animals and plants into Canada. Maximum penalties underWAPPRIITA for summary convictions are a fine of up to $25,000 and/or up to six months in jail for individuals and up to a $50,000 fine for corporations. For indictable convictions, maximum penalties are a fine of up to $150,000 and/or up to five years in jail for individuals, and a fine of up to $300,000 for corporations.

Cheers,
Scott

Aquattro · #6 05-17-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scythanith

I think Dave is trying to show people that they have to be aware of the consequences of buying corals.

No, this is a vendor updating us to the fact that he does not yet have these items, but is pursuing it.

As mentioned, we are not discussing the legal issues here. This forum is for purposes of advertising wares, announcing sales and providing support to customers.
This is not a public announcement forum and any further legal issues will result in all responses to Dave's announcment being removed.

Ron99 · #7 05-17-2009, 03:59 AM

Thanks Scott. I think I am starting to understand the basics of this. But if I understand correctly it can be done if you have a re-export license/permit and a copy of the original CITES importation information.

I have no insider knowledge of how this is done, this is just how I might try to go about it if I were looking to import these corals. So hypothetically, a third party, whether that's a retailer or another wholesaler or distributor in the US could purchase frags from ORA or Reef Farmers. Presumably, ORA and Reef Farmers may have the original CITES for some or all of their corals. They may be willing to provide a copy to the third party for re-export purposes. Now if that third party has a re-export license or permit then they could ship to Canada. Correct me if I'm wrong with this.

So importing these corals is not impossible, merely difficult and may require additional steps between ORA and Canada. Just because ORA etc. do not have re-export licenses and can't ship corals across the border does not mean others aren't able to do so. The wholesalers in LA obviously have permits to re-export to canada, for example, as many LFS here get product from them. Hell, if I were ORA or Reef Farmers, and given the current economy, I would be happy to have a third party increasing the market for my product by exporting it for me.

Anyhow, just my take on this.

Scythanith · #8 05-17-2009, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron99

Thanks Scott. I think I am starting to understand the basics of this. But if I understand correctly it can be done if you have a re-export license/permit and a copy of the original CITES importation information.

I have no insider knowledge of how this is done, this is just how I might try to go about it if I were looking to import these corals. So hypothetically, a third party, whether that's a retailer or another wholesaler or distributor in the US could purchase frags from ORA or Reef Farmers. Presumably, ORA and Reef Farmers may have the original CITES for some or all of their corals. They may be willing to provide a copy to the third party for re-export purposes. Now if that third party has a re-export license or permit then they could ship to Canada. Correct me if I'm wrong with this.

So importing these corals is not impossible, merely difficult and may require additional steps between ORA and Canada. Just because ORA etc. do not have re-export licenses and can't ship corals across the border does not mean others aren't able to do so. The wholesalers in LA obviously have permits to re-export to canada, for example, as many LFS here get product from them. Hell, if I were ORA or Reef Farmers, and given the current economy, I would be happy to have a third party increasing the market for my product by exporting it for me.

Anyhow, just my take on this.

Hypothetically you are correct.

wickedfrags · #9 06-25-2009, 06:28 PM

PM's are cleaned up.

Am interested to see what was deleted/edited from the thread! It is an interesting topic, and one some clearly feel strongly about.

No further info on ORA corals coming into Canada since the time of my original post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scythanith

I guess the biggest part to remember is that origin of many of the Tyree corals is unknown. How can you obtain the original export CITES is you don't know where it came from?

Dave, your PM's are full, clean it up!