Funny thing about the LFS and the "relinquiesh the CITES" comment

[Aquattro]

If someone wants a paper trail, ask the seller. In private. There has been enough arguing here about it, and it's now run past it's course.

[Zoaelite]

Does anyone know, besides CITES if there any other system which can act to verify the legitity of stock? When Tyree releases a frag, does it come with a certificate or something specifying its authenticity? It seems a little silly to ever ask for something like this, just a whole lot of extra work. If the coral looks exactly like the LE Red Planet Acro. then would you not trust it too be, thats what the vendor rating forums are for right?
Levi

[wickedfrags]

I have NEVER directly imported corals into this country, as such I do not receive the documents. Read my post above - I asked for the documents for business purposes and they would not provide them!!!

Now if I did import from another country, well I would have the documents.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Yes Dave, I agree it's not a reasonable request to see these documents. However, I have a copy of a note where you asked for the same documents.
I'm really getting annoyed with this whole topic Dave, and these posts are getting old. Please just give it a rest.

People have asked - they have not received any info from the person who did the importing other than "trust me" Hence interest in the discussion remains as they search for information before making their next person. Read a lot - think for yourself right!

Originally Posted by Aquattro

If someone wants a paper trail, ask the seller. In private. There has been enough arguing here about it, and it's now run past it's course.

No such system at all - you are taking the persons word for it.

What some people are after is just some proof that these were imported from the US in the last little while. We already know Steve Tyree does not expert himself to canada - and that is ok becuase we need to trust the person doing the selling. We all know they are mostly from indo at some point, however these particular pieces were re-exported from the US, so the importer should be able to say ya, we have the import permit from the US into Canada.

Originally Posted by zoaElite

Does anyone know, besides CITES if there any other system which can act to verify the legitity of stock? When Tyree releases a frag, does it come with a certificate or something specifying its authenticity? It seems a little silly to ever ask for something like this, just a whole lot of extra work. If the coral looks exactly like the LE Red Planet Acro. then would you not trust it too be, thats what the vendor rating forums are for right?
Levi

[fencer]

Correct me if I am wrong CITES permits are given when corals cross international borders. I have heard that in some cases (not dealing with coral) Fish and wildlife my want documentation (and CITES) if material is sold inter provincially. So if I sold a coral to the states I would have to have CITES documentation. The only documentaton I could give them is a reciept form the store I bought it from. I think that might be enough to satisfy fish and wildlife. I think the intent of CITES was to monitor and control the movement of livestock from the wild to the wholesaler and not from the LFS to the hobbyist. As for ORA you could provide DNA to establish lineage of the coral but that is going over board and cost some $$$ to do.

[Zoaelite]

That paper would just say its a coral that's been exported right, not a "LE Tyree piece"? Fundamentally I think a lot of the confusion here has to do with the fact that there is no way to actually verify this. If the system were cut and dry and everyone had access to it then great bang problem fixed, but I don't foresee that japanning any time soon. Then again, when you purchase a pure bred dog you pay allot extra to have the papers go along with it, when you purchase a frag that costs 13X what something similar would cost you would assume that there would be some sort of paper to go along with that.
Levi

[marie]

I really don't understand the process where corals get pedigreed. Didn't they come out of the same ocean as every other coral? It didn't just happen to flash into being, it came from parent corals that surely had more then 1 offspring...meaning there are lots more just like them waiting to be harvested...

[BlueAbyss]

Originally Posted by marie

I really don't understand the process where corals get pedigreed. Didn't they come out of the same ocean as every other coral? It didn't just happen to flash into being, it came from parent corals that surely had more then 1 offspring...meaning there are lots more just like them waiting to be harvested...

+1. But you said it way more elegantly than I could

[wickedfrags]

Hey Levi. You are correct - however it would have be "re-exported" from the USA, with the original CITES. I don't thing actual "LE Tyree piece" is what anyone is after (at least not myself), just confirmation that it came was imported from the USA and not a well photographed house coral at a premium price.

Originally Posted by zoaElite

That paper would just say its a coral that's been exported right, not a "LE Tyree piece"? Fundamentally I think a lot of the confusion here has to do with the fact that there is no way to actually verify this. If the system were cut and dry and everyone had access to it then great bang problem fixed, but I don't foresee that japanning any time soon. Then again, when you purchase a pure bred dog you pay allot extra to have the papers go along with it, when you purchase a frag that costs 13X what something similar would cost you would assume that there would be some sort of paper to go along with that.
Levi

Your confusion about this is understandable - and that is why I am so committed to drilling down and getting to the bottom of this. As a collector (and I know you are a collector!) - some corals have superior colour and are historically known to do well in captivity. Steve Tyree has been involved with collecting such corals since the early 1990's. When you mention the Tyree name - well you can expect a coral that has superior qualities - at least according to someone with over 20 years experience keeping SPS. Agreed there are plenty more corals in the ocean - but when you buy a Tyree coral, you are getting a coral historically known to be hardy, colourful and unique. If there is no way to confirm it was at least imported from the US, well you don't know what you are getting which is unfair given the higher prices typically associated with the frag.

Originally Posted by marie

I really don't understand the process where corals get pedigreed. Didn't they come out of the same ocean as every other coral? It didn't just happen to flash into being, it came from parent corals that surely had more then 1 offspring...meaning there are lots more just like them waiting to be harvested...

Can happen to the best of us

Originally Posted by BlueAbyss

+1. But you said it way more elegantly than I could

[albert_dao]

Red Planet and other ORA frags come on ORA plugs. The most no-brainer proof of lineage is to ask for confirmation of the plug. Bam, you're good to go.

On the other side of the issue; if one assumes that the frags are brought in legally, consider for a moment the implications upon the individual, who did all the legwork, relinquishing all their man hours over an unprofitable dispute on a public board. Seems like a moronic move to me. Doubly so if it's to satisfy the cause of a competing vendor.

$0.02 and a dollar to top it off.

[wickedfrags]

If it is worth doing - heck it is worth doing right and there is nothing to be defensive about. Legwork is only what your time is worth, to you. If it was as simply as filling out the forms it would not be worthy of discussion. I showed up at the CITES office, learned the process, could not obtain the information required for some of the same corals I can now buy from others...that is why I am working hard at figuring this out.

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Red Planet and other ORA frags come on ORA plugs. The most no-brainer proof of lineage is to ask for confirmation of the plug. Bam, you're good to go.

On the other side of the issue; if one assumes that the frags are brought in legally, consider for a moment the implications upon the individual, who did all the legwork, relinquishing all their man hours over an unprofitable dispute on a public board. Seems like a moronic move to me. Doubly so if it's to satisfy the cause of a competing vendor.

$0.02 and a dollar to top it off.