Copperband (pls. close)

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by leezard

Sorry to hear of the trouble. I read through the post, and was know that you didn't want to create a debate.... but curiosity always kills THIS cat:



Can you explain this to me? Or point me in the general direction of reading material on the subject?

Thanks!

Oh I don't know what I can explain...all I meant by that is it could have been anything that killed the CBB and we'll never know. Which is true but I was just being difficult. I just didn't want to bring up cyanide although I am sure thats the problem here, because it leads to some very nasty debates. Many people do not believe cyanide is used.

Last year after diving in the Philippines and seeing it first hand, I can tell you 100% it is used.

At MACNA last year, one of the well respected speakers (don't know his name) estimated that 1/3 of all aquarium trade fish come from the Philippines and 3/4 of them are cyanide caught. Is this true? Don't know...but it wouldn't surprise me.

Again though, lets not turn this into a huge debate. I feel its good to share these problems for others to learn but the exact cause shouldn't be a sticking point here...the fact is that I have a very healthy aquarium with thriving fish and this species dies everytime in the exact same manner.

[my2rotties]

For what it's worth this is what I was told when I dug deeper to find out the cause of death of my angels...

Many fish have this bacteria but already have immunity to it, then some fish do not, especially large angels. Fish come from all parts of the ocean and they are all exposed to different bacteria, some tolerate, some don't. When fish are collected they are all put together so the bacteria spreads like a cold. Again some build immunity and some do not... some fight it for awhile, but stress due to transport and all that they go through lowers their immune response.

If a new fish is brought home and put into QT, it might be fine until it is put into the display. Then they are exposed to the bacteria within the system. Some get sick right away and some can fight it, then some will either fight it or die. The person that gave me this info is a very trusted source and I consider his word gospel. I spent well over an hour speaking to him about this entire thing and if you do not treat a sick fish, it will die in 2-3 days, sometimes less depending on the health of the fish. If it is in a smaller system you can notice the symptoms and treat it. If the fish is in a large tank it is hard to be able to tell, until it is too late, As in GSP's case and my case.

Sometimes the fish will get this bacteria three times and if it is treated, it will build immunity and get well. From what I have learned about this, I am adding a 90g tank to my system, which will house any new fish and expose them to my water supply. If the fish shows symptoms, I will be able to cut off the water and treat the bacteria.

I asked if this bacteria would die, if it did not have the species that are susceptible to it in the system. I was told no, since all fish have this bacteria. Perhaps GSP's CBB had enough tolerance to it until he was moved into a new system and stress battered down his immune system. I could be wrong but it is not far fetched. The only way this baceteria might not survive is if all sand was removed from the system where it could breed easily and reproduce. He does not believe in having any substrate on tank bottoms. He compared sand bottoms and bare bottoms to having tile and carpet... Of course carpet holds things inside and tile can be easily wiped clean.

I cannot removed all the sand from my system, but the 90g acclimation tank will have a bare bottom and live rock. I am not planning on adding any fish anytime soon, but will enjoy the bonus 90g of water for my overall system water quality. If I end up with a sick fish or a fish that needs to be removed, it can stay down there until I figure out what to do with it. I have the option to cut off water supply and treat disease or just run all my water through it.

My angels did not die in vain and I learned many lessons from it. Now I will always do things differently and learned about mystery deaths that can usually be treated. All the symptoms GSP mentioned happened to my angels word for word... I had one of the fish examined by this person I went to and he was able to make diagnosis of it...

All these symptoms are the same as cyanide poisoning.

I am not going to get into a debate about this with any one. Perhaps I am a dummy to even post anything about it, but if it can help someone else, I felt it was worth while to make mention of it... I am done for now, and hope I don't get my butt kicked for saying anything.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

For what it's worth this is what I was told when I dug deeper to find out the cause of death of my angels...

Many fish have this bacteria but already have immunity to it, then some fish do not, especially large angels. Fish come from all parts of the ocean and they are all exposed to different bacteria, some tolerate, some don't. When fish are collected they are all put together so the bacteria spreads like a cold. Again some build immunity and some do not... some fight it for awhile, but stress due to transport and all that they go through lowers their immune response.

If a new fish is brought home and put into QT, it might be fine until it is put into the display. Then they are exposed to the bacteria within the system. Some get sick right away and some can fight it, then some will either fight it or die. The person that gave me this info is a very trusted source and I consider his word gospel. I spent well over an hour speaking to him about this entire thing and if you do not treat a sick fish, it will die in 2-3 days, sometimes less depending on the health of the fish. If it is in a smaller system you can notice the symptoms and treat it. If the fish is in a large tank it is hard to be able to tell, until it is too late, As in GSP's case and my case.

Sometimes the fish will get this bacteria three times and if it is treated, it will build immunity and get well. From what I have learned about this, I am adding a 90g tank to my system, which will house any new fish and expose them to my water supply. If the fish shows symptoms, I will be able to cut off the water and treat the bacteria.

I asked if this bacteria would die, if it did not have the species that are susceptible to it in the system. I was told no, since all fish have this bacteria. Perhaps GSP's CBB had enough tolerance to it until he was moved into a new system and stress battered down his immune system. I could be wrong but it is not far fetched. The only way this baceteria might not survive is if all sand was removed from the system where it could breed easily and reproduce. He does not believe in having any substrate on tank bottoms. He compared sand bottoms and bare bottoms to having tile and carpet... Of course carpet holds things inside and tile can be easily wiped clean.

I cannot removed all the sand from my system, but the 90g acclimation tank will have a bare bottom and live rock. I am not planning on adding any fish anytime soon, but will enjoy the bonus 90g of water for my overall system water quality. If I end up with a sick fish or a fish that needs to be removed, it can stay down there until I figure out what to do with it. I have the option to cut off water supply and treat disease or just run all my water through it.

My angels did not die in vain and I learned many lessons from it. Now I will always do things differently and learned about mystery deaths that can usually be treated. All the symptoms GSP mentioned happened to my angels word for word... I had one of the fish examined by this person I went to and he was able to make diagnosis of it...

All these symptoms are the same as cyanide poisoning.

I am not going to get into a debate about this with any one. Perhaps I am a dummy to even post anything about it, but if it can help someone else, I felt it was worth while to make mention of it... I am done for now, and hope I don't get my butt kicked for saying anything.

Thank you for posting this

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Myka

Well, you can't control people's thoughts on the subject, and it is public, so conversations often end up off on something you didn't want/expect. Imo, it really should be a conversation (not a debate...we have no proof, and I don't think you're getting an autopsy?? lol) about what happened to the fish. I find it very interesting that you have had 5 die with very similar symptoms. It really makes me want that autopsy!! Do you still have the body? Did you happen to freeze it? I wonder where an autopsy could be done and what the associated cost would be? I'm willing to put a certain amount of money into that if it's a possibility (an not an atrocious cost).

We will never be able to keep fish like these (that don't seen to have a significant reason for dying, like starvation) if we don't find out what is happening to them. I have a MAJOR soft spot for CBBs, and I would really really really like to see a brighter future for the captive keeping of CBBs.

Your right but I am just a little upset about this one right now and don't have the energy to debate or discuss what happened. Im probably a little cranky now too since he passed just before 3am last night and I ended up not sleeping until 5am since I was actually quite upset. The last time I felt this way about a pet dying was my dog 4 years ago. I don't know why this one has been so rough.

On top of that I spent a day away from work today to go pick up a frag from a group order and mine was the only one NOT to arrive. Its been a bit of a trying day to say the least.

Well since we have started to talk about it, yes I am quite sure these are signs of cyanide poisoning. I have done so much research now and I would be very surprised if it were not a ruptured liver.

The only way to test now for cyanide is to blend the fish and do the tests in a lab with very expensive equipment. Not something most of us have access to or could afford.

He is frozen in the freezer now but I will not be cutting him up.