The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by digital-audiophile

I always try to help where I can, based on my own experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions in this hobby but have learned from all of them.

We were all new to the hobby at one point. I started coming here shortly after I started in the hobby. I started by lurking well before I ever signed up.

There are a lot of good people here that have a lot of great experience and are always ready to help wherever they can.

I think there has been a lot of nasty vibes going around in the past little while. I hate to say but it seems like a lot of the lon timers have just seem to have become annoyed with certain people.

That being said, I really don't think that is is about the questions people ask, it's that despite the best will of what I would call the "core" membership of canreef, advice is ignored or pushed aside and bad results come about.


It's not about just saying that a tang should not be kept in a 50 gallon.. perhaps not but is a 90 or a 300 really much better? These animals are being taken out of the big blue sea and kept in glass boxes.. these are always a poor substitute for the ocean. Can we make our pets lives a little better by providing them with a bigger "cage" sure?

Am I guilty of some of the negativity? perhaps... I always like to help people where I can.. anyone on these boards who knows me or has at least met me in person I would hope find me to be a nice kind helpful person.

Have I made bad choices with my tank? YES i sure have! Despite reading many times about how hard mandarins are to keep I have tried them on two different occasions.. both times the fish dies within a week of captivity.. sadly enough I think I mourn the loss of the $$$ rather than life of the fish and I know that is wrong... we are playing god here keeping these creatures and I should know better.

Am I doing things wrong right now? You bet I am! I have three tangs in my 90.. are they healthy? Yes Are the happy? As far as I can tell.. should I do it? I don't know if it is right but I do and I have success with it.

Anyhow.. just my two cents (well maybe three cents) I just hope that I am respected as a fellow reef keer on the same journey as you all.



**** forgive any spelling mistakes I may have made *****

Well, I can, forgave you're reefing mistakes but I don't so sure about the grammer mistakes

No seriously though, if you are having success with the tangs, I say continue on. Of course you may not be able to keep them into full adult sizes but enjoy them while you can!

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Jason McK

Chin Lee spends a great deal of time and energy maintaining the 'Fish Life Span' Polls
Christy Spent months creating a fish reference library
and none of it gets utilized to there potential. You say
But we have already spent exhaustive amounts of time gathering educational reference material so all canreef members can make informed purchases.

In my opinion (not the Mods of Canreef) a red list is rediculous. There will always be success stores and sad failure stories with advanced fish, corals, or inverts. So to say No you shouldn't keep X in an aquarium will never get collective agreement

Well then there you go...thats why I said I doubt they would go for it. I didn't mean it in a bad way like it was a good idea but mods wouldn't want to do it...I just meant that they only way this would really work would be a whole new section and that I didn't think the mods would want that.

[brizzo]

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Dear Nazerine
I felt responding to you I would be a little more direct and personal. I will have to say your "guessing" is way off the mark. A little known fact is a person can peruse these boards and read all they want without EVER becoming a member. I think you would be surprised of the amount of people who read these forums but are not members nor have they ever posted.
I appreciate you trying to slueth out or direct that I am just another member but it was not until the latest posts of said person did I finally feel a need to "get involved" and become a member. One can only hold their tongue so long and in this case it was the needle that broke the camels back my friend.

And you're complaining about Myka making condescending comments? A simple explanation that you've never signed up before until now would have sufficed.

[Treebeard]

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank.

[Madreefer]

Originally Posted by Treebeard

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank.

The entertaining part would be when the person who brings in such a list leaves the LFS afterwards. The conversation and the names that they would be calling this person would be a hoot to hear. If you owned a business and a person comes in telling or showing you what you should or should not sell what would you think or do? Everyones systems or setups are different. There's already been alot of examples on here where something works for one but not the other. I'm really shocked that this thread has not been locked yet and I'm glad it has'nt been. It is a very good debate. So please lets not get out of hand so this thread continues.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by naesco

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

[naesco]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

[naesco]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

The entertaining part would be when the person who brings in such a list leaves the LFS afterwards. The conversation and the names that they would be calling this person would be a hoot to hear. If you owned a business and a person comes in telling or showing you what you should or should not sell what would you think or do? Everyones systems or setups are different. There's already been alot of examples on here where something works for one but not the other. I'm really shocked that this thread has not been locked yet and I'm glad it has'nt been. It is a very good debate. So please lets not get out of hand so this thread continues.

I make a practice and other reefers as well of chastising LFS if I see cleaner wrasse or moorish idol in their tanks for sale. Why do you think they are not brought in as often. LFS more than anyone know the survivability of these species in their own tanks and reputable LFS do not order them anymore unless requested by a customer.

[my2rotties]

Marie mentioned some where in this thread that she sold it. I am not sure if she would know if it is alive or not now. I can say I have never been to an LFS and not seen cleaner wrasses available. At least in my neck of the woods. I have always had good luck with mine.

Originally Posted by naesco

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

[naesco]

Originally Posted by Treebeard

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank.

Great idea. Let's us do it this weekend and see who is carrying cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol, Powder brown (nigricans) and some of the potential red/yellow species and post the results.
It would be really interesting.
Wayne