The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals

[Snaz]

Originally Posted by subman

Yeah I have a panther it was small, cheap, and beautiful (always a bad combination) I bought it on a whim and the LFS said no worries its a great fish! It is a great fish

Perhaps if you had seen this fish red listed you would not have purchased it. A red list is just another tool that helps an informed aquarist make a good choice to his stock.

[digital-audiophile]

I always try to help where I can, based on my own experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions in this hobby but have learned from all of them.

We were all new to the hobby at one point. I started coming here shortly after I started in the hobby. I started by lurking well before I ever signed up.

There are a lot of good people here that have a lot of great experience and are always ready to help wherever they can.

I think there has been a lot of nasty vibes going around in the past little while. I hate to say but it seems like a lot of the lon timers have just seem to have become annoyed with certain people.

That being said, I really don't think that is is about the questions people ask, it's that despite the best will of what I would call the "core" membership of canreef, advice is ignored or pushed aside and bad results come about.


It's not about just saying that a tang should not be kept in a 50 gallon.. perhaps not but is a 90 or a 300 really much better? These animals are being taken out of the big blue sea and kept in glass boxes.. these are always a poor substitute for the ocean. Can we make our pets lives a little better by providing them with a bigger "cage" sure?

Am I guilty of some of the negativity? perhaps... I always like to help people where I can.. anyone on these boards who knows me or has at least met me in person I would hope find me to be a nice kind helpful person.

Have I made bad choices with my tank? YES i sure have! Despite reading many times about how hard mandarins are to keep I have tried them on two different occasions.. both times the fish dies within a week of captivity.. sadly enough I think I mourn the loss of the $$$ rather than life of the fish and I know that is wrong... we are playing god here keeping these creatures and I should know better.

Am I doing things wrong right now? You bet I am! I have three tangs in my 90.. are they healthy? Yes Are the happy? As far as I can tell.. should I do it? I don't know if it is right but I do and I have success with it.

Anyhow.. just my two cents (well maybe three cents) I just hope that I am respected as a fellow reef keer on the same journey as you all.



**** forgive any spelling mistakes I may have made *****

[naesco]

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

and another qoute from another thread


and another



After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?
In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Your post's have a "smile to your face but snicker behind your back" feel to them. I am sorry but I haven't seen anything constructive in your posts. Just judgement. I think an apology to all the members you have talked down to and belittled in all your glory of knowing all would be appropriate. Maybe you should make a "Mykas guide to do as I preach, not as I do". I hope people can go back and see your prior posts to see how much of a hypocrite you are!

If you wanna save the world this certainly isnt the way to do it. If anyone is unsure of what they can and cant do I am sure they can research it and will find most topics are 6 of one half a dozen of another. Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

What a bunch of BS from someone who has 6 posts. Who are you?

[Leah]

My vote would be for having fish police come to our homes, check out what you got
and decide if we should or should not get something!

[naesco]

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

[Leah]

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

[my2rotties]

I have plenty of books but the contradict each other for info on the fish and so does any research I have done online. Then of course if you go to an LFS, the info is still different then what you really know. Some stores have had no problems with certain fish and others will not bring them in because they are hard to keep... It is tough to know what is right and wrong since there is so much info to be had, and even on the forums, people have different opinions altogether. It makes it tough for us newbies to know what to do.

Even when I ask I get heated comments and then I get private messages saying not to worry, just do this or that and I will be fine. It makes it very frustrating to do the right thing. I have been able to keep mandarins without issue, a copperband butterfly with not a single problem and cleaner wrasses are fine as well. Since I now know they are not an easy fish to keep, I would never advise anyone to get one. I don't want my luck or good fortune in keeping these fish to reflect upon someone that may not be so lucky in the end. I never give advise since I feel I do not know enough to be helpful...

Originally Posted by Leah

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

[3MTA3]

Originally Posted by naesco

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Naesco...Let me start by saying I have read your posts as well....we have enough people in this world telling us what we can and cant do that we dont need a Tang police force on a friendly and informative website.
Its all about how you go about "informing" someone. You dont tell them "OMG YOU CANT HAVE THAT IN YOUR TANK!!!!!!!!!
Most of us even from childhood rebel against such discrimination and authority and will do the exact opposite of what you are saying just to p**s you off when they post it!

As for your mothering words that we should thank or applaud Myka for her efforts??!!!! Are you hearing the same voices or are you related to her? Have you not read the drivel and condesending words she has posted to others ....come to think of it you have just posted the same type of comment towards Marie...wow.
Make a list have and fun doing it...it is great as a reference but JUST that..a reference. What you or I write is not the bible of reefkeeping and certainly not someone who doesnt practice what she preaches. This wasnt meant to attack Myka and make her feel guilty...just to open her eyes and the eyes of others as to how to respond appropriately to someone with questions and treat all members/vendors the same and accordingly.

Originally Posted by Madreefer

It's not about how many posts a person has. Who cares who this person is. It's obviously someone who has been around for a while and has setup a new membership just to do some venting and knock someone down a peg or two. It's great that Myka trys to help people but you have to practise what you preach. Myka has created a "guide to this and that" Thats cool and all but to put your name in front of it and call it yours, comes across that you think of yourself as a bit of a guru. Even though she might be very knowledgeable. Rather than putting up a red/green/yellow list it's best to put up a fish library with all the info about that certain species. It's alot of work but could help out alot in the end. This is pretty entertaining but lets not get toooo personal, would'nt want to push someone in to having to use meds.

This one just made me laugh . However you are right...as I said above it is how you go about it. Gold star for you Mr. Madreefer.

Originally Posted by nazerine

For once I agree with naesco. It's nice that you have an opinion 3MTA3, and I'm very sure some members will agree with you, and some will not. But I'm going to guess you're a member under another name here to be so familiar with post/thread history, so why hide behind a new forum name?

Dear Nazerine
I felt responding to you I would be a little more direct and personal. I will have to say your "guessing" is way off the mark. A little known fact is a person can peruse these boards and read all they want without EVER becoming a member. I think you would be surprised of the amount of people who read these forums but are not members nor have they ever posted.
I appreciate you trying to slueth out or direct that I am just another member but it was not until the latest posts of said person did I finally feel a need to "get involved" and become a member. One can only hold their tongue so long and in this case it was the needle that broke the camels back my friend.


I am not trying to hurt someones feelings or start fights...just simply trying to make sure people are treated properly as personally I think people who read these boards without becoming a member will NOT become a member as they choose not to be barraged by nay sayers and know-it-alls when they are asking simple things. Too many boards have these people and it only harms the forum not the person as less people register to become a part of the society. Not one person can say they know it all and what works for one may not work for another.
Remember this is a hobby....the happier we are the more apt we are to continue. I am sure you would not want to be part of a forum being made to feel stupid or dumb for the questions you ask.

I hope everyone can take from this what I had intended and use it in the future to treat people with the same respect you yourself would want.We all in the end will do what we like but having a fun and informative site is what we all need. Good Day

Bruce S

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by naesco

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

[naesco]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne