The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals

[Leah]

I am sorry just trying to lighten the air a little. But I just wonder if it really will help. Do
we not read any books. I bought books when I first started this and in all of them they
give ratings tank size basic do's and don'ts. Maybe we should encourage people to read
more. In so many things it is common sense. Yes we have gotton some crapo advice from LFS but I always try and research before I try. Is this not the point we should be trying to get across. Oh and just being pleasant to one another might be a nice idea!
Maybe we should do a book club pass along good ones. I have also bought many books
on fish so I can always check what I might try.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by naesco

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

[Lance]

Originally Posted by naesco

Instead of posting this drivel, you, Marie and others should be coming to the defense of Myka and the efforts of others to develop a red and yellow list and applauding Myka for the efforts Myka has made to assist reefers.
There will be a red and yellow list on this board for the benefit of all reefs

Tell us, Marie is the powder brown tang nigricans still alive?

As I see it, it is this kind of statement that makes this whole list idea unfeasible. Some people are too quick to chastise somebody, and use too sharp a tongue when doing so. There may be underlying circumstances as to why a person may have purchased a certain animal:

eg. Marie stated that the fish was sent to her in error. She didn't order that fish. (Besides which, Marie is an experienced hobbyist and has several difficult species thriving in her tank.)

eg. I bought a Mandarin Dragonet when my tank was only 6 months old. Did I think my tank was ready for it? No. I didn't particularly even want the fish. I purchased the fish from an LFS because it had been sitting in a tank for 2 weeks without any live rock and was wasting away. I brought the fish home and over the next 6 months I purchased 7 bottles of Tigger pods to keep a decent pod population going. I have had him now for over a year and he is healthy and fit, without as far as I know ever eating any prepared foods. Yet, I've received hell on more than one occasion for owning a Mandarin.

eg. I bought a 3" Sailfin Tang for my 90 gal tank. Sure enough, I caught hell for it: "It'll grow too large for your 90 and you won't get a bigger tank for it". He's now about 6" and I have a 225 gal home for him.

The point I'm trying to make is that things are not always black and white, and jumping all over someone for an animal they may keep is why, IMO, although it may be a nice idea in theory, this "LIST" idea is not going to work.

[Madreefer]

Originally Posted by naesco

What a bunch of BS from someone who has 6 posts. Who are you?

It's not about how many posts a person has. Who cares who this person is. It's obviously someone who has been around for a while and has setup a new membership just to do some venting and knock someone down a peg or two. It's great that Myka trys to help people but you have to practise what you preach. Myka has created a "guide to this and that" Thats cool and all but to put your name in front of it and call it yours, comes across that you think of yourself as a bit of a guru. Even though she might be very knowledgeable. Rather than putting up a red/green/yellow list it's best to put up a fish library with all the info about that certain species. It's alot of work but could help out alot in the end. This is pretty entertaining but lets not get toooo personal, would'nt want to push someone in to having to use meds.

[brizzo]

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

For once I agree with naesco. It's nice that you have an opinion 3MTA3, and I'm very sure some members will agree with you, and some will not. But I'm going to guess you're a member under another name here to be so familiar with post/thread history, so why hide behind a new forum name?

[Myka]

First of all, oh yes I am probably one of the most hypocritical bastards in the world! I will say that for sure. I don't follow a lot of the rules when it comes to my own tank, but I definitely wouldn't recommend that to anyone else!

You miss the point of most of my postings. My aim is to help newbies out. That is my biggest payoff on these boards. Keep in mind that most of the threads I post in are threads started by people who are new to reef keeping. There are a lot of "rules" or general guidelines if you will that will really help a newbie out to follow them. Once someone gains more experience they can branch out and try new or more challenging things without as much risk. Newbies are often put off of reef keeping because they bite off a bigger chunk than they can chew. If there are more experienced reefers around that can help to keep those newbies keep things under control then there are greater chances that there will be another great reefer in the world.

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?

I sure do. My Kole Tang is rather a cute lil thang. His body is about the same size as my Bangaii Cardinals' bodies. Point being, his current size is not too large for the tank, but I have no plans to get a 100+ gallon tank to house him, so he will have a new home - soon too as he has not done the job I hoped he would. I bought him with this in mind, and I took over a year to find a specimen small enough for my tank at which point I paid a grossly large amount for him.

No I didn't tell someone their 65 was to small for a tang (at least not the last little while), I told someone their 90 was too small for a Sailfin Tang. Don't you agree?

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

My ass. I could have said 63%, would that have worked better for you? Seriously though, I have done enough work in retail stores when I was younger, and also just simply by looking on forums like these or RC, and it's not difficult to see that 95/97/99% (a large percentage anyway) are not capable of housing a Flying Gurnard or a Banded Bamboo shark. Do you disagree?

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Oh I know!!! J&L's New & Noteworthy page this week is AWFUL!! There are at least 4 critters on there that should be left in the ocean (or kept by experienced reef keepers only for the sake of argument). I have seen red/yellow listed animals in every store that I have bought livestock from at some point or another. I didn't mention anything about it on these forums because J&L doesn't respond as they don't check these forums very often. Does this mean I shouldn't try to make a difference?

Oh, and if you're that interested I wanted to order a photosynthetic gorgonian, and a brain coral.

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Well I have been keeping reefs since somewhere around 1990 ish, so I'm glad someone's finally recognized me as a leading expert! I'm flattered!



Seriously though, it doesn't take an expert to do a little research to find plenty of literature on cyanide caught fish, and which species are more likely to be caught that way. Have you personally seen these fish caught with cyanide? No? Does that mean it doesn't happen?

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

You're a bit of an extremist aren't you? You're like the kettle calling the pot black. The red/yellow list for example, as I've already said is not a be all end all. The point of it is to help newbies, and if newbies are told "NO!" instead of "Well, maybe if you do this this this..." then that's not necessary a bad thing in many cases.






Hey Brad, would you change my "Member" to "Rogue Reef Bully" please? I think it would be more suiting.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by Myka

You're a bit of an extremist aren't you? You're like the kettle calling the pot black. The red/yellow list for example, as I've already said is not a be all end all. The point of it is to help newbies, and if newbies are told "NO!" instead of "Well, maybe if you do this this this..." then that's not necessary a bad thing in many cases.

While reading this thread, I did see extremist attitudes. However, he did not come off sounding extreme. I'm not saying you did either. I'll leave it at that.

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by Myka

My ass. I could have said 63%, would that have worked better for you? Seriously though, I have done enough work in retail stores when I was younger, and also just simply by looking on forums like these or RC, and it's not difficult to see that 95/97/99% (a large percentage anyway) are not capable of housing a Flying Gurnard or a Banded Bamboo shark. Do you disagree?

Who knew your a$$ was so smart (sorry I just really couldn't help myself) Honestly though Myka makes a very good point, there are certain fish that should not keep until they get more experience and their are some fish that probably should never be kept.

For example a LFS here got in these cute little butterflyfish (eightbanded or cheatodon octofasciatus) when I asked an employee about them he admitted that the order was a mistake and that probably all of them would die since they only eat certain types of SPS coral in the wild. Now say it wasn't a reputable fish store or had knowledgeable staff working there and they said it was fine and suitable, now say if I have knowledge of a quick list I could easily check and this fish come up "red" then maybe I'll decide for myself that it would be a poor choice.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I wasn't going to reply again (but of course I am) because this thing has really gotten so ridiculous.

This really was just meant to be a good, positive thing. I really can't wrap my head around why anyone who doesn't like the idea of the list would even care if its made or not. No one is trying to pass laws here and take your fish from you. No one is telling you your wrong. If you didn't like it, stay away. Don't contribute to this thread. Just move on to the next one. Why reply at all?!?

Myka didn't start this to be a debate about whether a list should be made or not. The list was simply being made as a GUIDE for people to learn from. If its done right, it can be a great tool to go along with the others we have already on this site. Instead this thread has just gone WAY off topic and become a stupid debate about what would go on what list and why there shouldn't be a list at all.

It only got off topic because people didn't like the idea...well you didn't have to get involved.